Rock, Paper, Scissors

Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports
1

That was certainly an amusing column about RPS, SDSTAFF Veg, but I’ve still got some doubts. I mean come on–the World RPS Society is obviously a joke! I’m afraid your “sarcas-o-meter” is on the blink. “[T]comprehensive rules section and strategy guide have an undeniable air of authenticity”??? You think there really is an English RPS law of 1842? I’ll admit these people do seem to have an obsession that may have led them to do actual research, but I wouldn’t necessarily trust them to separate it from the BS. How about checking the OED for an entry on roshambo to discover its etymology? And why not consult with an actual games historian or the editors of GAMES Magazine?

I didn’t feel like schlepping my butt down to the public library to examine the OED (I wouldn’t actually expect anything there anyway, but you never know), but here’s what I found by looking in my attic (all my stuff’s in the attic right now–don’t ask):

According to my copy of The Games Treasury by Merilyn Simmonds Mohr (there’s a 2nd edition, but I don’t have it), RPS is a variation of an older game called Mora.

I hope that’s a brief enough quote for copyright purposes. Mohr goes on to describe Mora, in which you each hold up one or two fingers (or more, depending on the variation) and simulaniously shout a guess about the number your opponant will hold up. One point for each correctly guessed finger, if you decide to keep score.

Buck, Buck is played by three players–a Buck, a Master, and a Frog. Buck bends over and buries his eyes in the Master’s stomach. Frog jumps onto Buck’s back and holds out some fingers for Master to see while yelling, “Buck, Buck, how many fingers do I hold up?” Buck has to guess right to escape and become Master, who then becomes Frog for the next round. And teachers are afraid of dodgeball!

[Sorry, Dex, beat ya to it. --Chronos]

[Edited by Chronos on 07-07-2001 at 10:10 PM]

2

Fix the link please, Dex.

3

Yes, the World RPS Society is clearly an amusing fake.

Just take a look at their list of opening gambits. (http://www.worldrps.com/gambits.html). For “The Avalanche” (3 Rocks in a row), they have the description, “A subtle, yet aggressive gambit. Was the first of the Triple Gambits developed in the early 1890s (the others being The Bureaucrat and Toolbox).”

The Bureaucrat, hee hee.

If stuff like this is over the head of the staffers, Unca Cecil had better block their access to THE ONION…

4

Just thought I’d pass on the following forward that I received a few months back. Apparently these guys fooled not only the CBC, but the Edmonton Journal and a publishing company as well.
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From:
> > Sent: Monday, March 12, 2001 2:35 PM
> > To: All Staff
> > Subject: Rock, Paper, Scissors
> >
Hi Guys,

Something funny for a Monday afternoon. A friend of mine and his brother started a website called http://www.worldrps.com, homepage of the “World Rock, Paper, Scissors Society”. This was started as a complete joke, and everything on it is made up. However, there is an article on the RPS society in today’s Edmonton Journal: http://www.edmontonjournal.com/city/stories/010312/5084011.html and the one brother was interviewed on CBC’s Edmonton Station. http://edmonton.cbc.ca/radio1/edm-am/goodques.html
They have even been approached by a publishing company to write a book on the history of RPS - all of which they have made up. Look through the article and website and listen to the interview keeping this in mind. It is really quite funny.

P.S. Check out the membership application page…makes me laugh.

5

An interesting point on Mora that I’m itching to share:

I’ve got an introductory book on game theory (The Compleat Strategyst by J.D. Williams) that discusses a version of Mora (or Morra, as he spells it). In this version, each player extends one, two, or three fingers, while simultaneously guessing how many the other player will hold out. If one player correctly guesses the number of fingers the other holds out, that player receives points equal to the total number of fingers held up (otherwise, no one gets any points). In other words, if I hold out three fingers and guess one, and you hold out one finger and guess two, I win and receive four points.

This version of Morra has an optimum strategy that, if followed, ensures that over the long haul, you won’t lose more than you win: extend one finger and guess three (5/12 of the time); extend two fingers and guess two (4/12 of the time); extend three fingers and guess one (3/12 of the time). The game is sufficiently complicated that the optimum strategy is not obvious, and, unlike RPS*, the optimum strategy actually wins against most other strategies. A great inducement to introduce this game to your friends!
*Optimum strategy for RPS: show scissors 1/3 of the time; show rock 1/3 of the time; show paper 1/3 of the time. This is optimum because no other strategy can beat it; however, this strategy doesn’t beat any other strategy either, so you’re pretty much guaranteed to come out even over the long haul.

6

Check out this online version of the game at the Brunching Shuttlecocks site. http://www.brunching.com/toys/toy-psr.html

7

One major problem with theories of pre-historic “rock, paper, scissors” is that there was no paper! Paper is a relatively recent invention believed to have originated in China between 100 B.C. and 100 A.D. The art of papermaking didn’t spread to Asia for about a half-millenium after its invention. Paper wasn’t known in Japan until approximately 610 A.D. The game simply could not have been spread by Rome or Roman soldiers because they, too, did not know paper. The wealthy Roman citizens used vellum (sheeps’ skin scraped smooth and thin) while papyrus from Egypt (made of reeds pressed flat) was the commonly used writing material for the masses or military. Papermaking in Europe, in fact, wasn’t known to be practiced until 912 - 61 A.D. when it was first encouraged under the rule of Abd-al-Rahman III, Omayyad caliph of Cordoba, Spain.

The sheer unavailability of “paper” must make the game “rock, PAPER, scissors” a relatively recent pastime, and casts extreme doubt upon any theory that dates the game to a time before paper was known or existed. Check out the Institute of Paper Science and Technology (!) at http://www.ipst.edu for more detail on the history of paper.

8

A search of Japanese-language pages on the web cites only one source that claims the game is a local invention. (It is part of the May 2001 column in the site operated by the Nagano Chamber of Commerce and Industry.) According to this column, rock (Gu in Japanese) is a palace, scissors (Choki) is an iron instrument, and paper (Pa) either alludes to paper (i.e., knowlege) or to a mirror (symbolic of ritual). This specific question aside, I have noticed in my travels that certain things (the cat’s cradle being one, and children taunting each other by saying “nyaa-nyaa-nyaa” being another) are so universal, I wonder if they may even give us some clues to the behavior of proto-humans that existed prior to language…

9

Perhaps anyone knows where I can find online resources regarding Silician reasoning?

Also,
zut - Have you any idea if there is an online version of the book, or if the proof of the optimum strategy exists in cyberspace?

10

When I lived in Germany I recall being told about a FOURTH possiblilty in this game, thus throwing off the symetry.

Does anyone else know anything about this? I wish I could remember it!!!

11

I love the WorldRPS site! But it is a fake; I’m surprised Veg didn’t find the admission while on their message board.

An interlocuter to their board would continuely post on how lame the site was until Master Roshambolla (mentioned in the Staff Report) “breaks the masquerade”. Essentilaly, the site is a psychology experiment, but a fun one. Heck, I only found it becasue it was a Weird Earl a ways back.

k_i, the author of the Iocaine Powder program explains his strategy.

12

I heard the “fourth throw” was Match when I was growing up. Match burns paper. Scissors cuts matchstick. But the ambiguity comes in with rock: does rock snuff match or does match strike on rock?

Well, the World RPS has an article based on the Dynamite Myth with similar results. Basically, Dynamite and any theoretical throw outside the trinity is a non-sanctioned throw, illegal in official matches. (FYI, some other illegal throws: Spock, Texas-leghorn (AKA “Hang Ten”), and the Bird.)

13

Just to set the record straight: the winner from the Second International RoShamBo Programming Competition was a program called “Greenberg” by Andrzej Nagorko (Poland). “Iocaine Powder” by Dan Egnor (USA) came in third. There’s some interesting analysis on the website.

BTW, I thought RoShamBo was where two guys took turns kicking each other in the nuts and the one left standing was the winner. The winning strategy consists of going first.

14

The same site for the competition has a FAQ addressing this confusion on RoShamBo – RPS or testicular fortitude?

They say that Cartman’s game (of kicking each other in the nuts) is Roshambeau not RoShamBo. :confused: Hey, I just report what I see.

15

Hello? We are seriously discussion a rigged game (Strategy: go first) proposed by a character on SOUTH PARK is the “origin” of a game that was named in the 1700s? Hello? Anyone there?

16

No, the game is not known as “jan-ken” in Japan, it is “jan-ken-PON.” I’ve never heard it referred to in any other manner, not in Japan, and not outside Japan by any native Japanese speaker.

17

Heya…

I teach english to middle schoolers in Nagoya, Japan, and I’ve never heard it called anything but Janken. I’ve never heard it called “Jankenpon.”

Sure, they say “Jankenpon” (actually, around here it seems to come out more like “Jankenpoi”) while playing the game - but when referring to the game, they call it “Janken.”

I’m pretty sure this isn’t regional, because that’s how it is on TV, as well.

One of the first things a student ever said to me in English was “Hi, my name is Kyoda. Let’s Janken!”

Just an FYI.

-Kris

18

I don’t know if there is an online version, but you can prove to yourself that this strategy never loses. For simplicity, let’s use a shorthand for the strategies, so that strategy 13 = extend one finger and guess three. Thus, the optimum stategy is: (13 with 5/12 probability; 22 with 4/12 probability; and 31 with 3/12 probability). If you compare that with each of the nine pure strategies (i.e., 11 all the time is one pure strategy), you’ll see that the optimum never loses. For example:[ul]
Suppose your opponent plays 11. 5/12 of the time, you’d play 13, resulting in a loss of 2. 4/12 of the time, you’d play 22, resulting in no gain or loss. 3/12 of the time, you’d play 31, resulting in a gain of four. Over time, your expected earnings are 5/12*(-2) + 4/120 + 3/124 = 2/12.[/ul]
For the optimum strategy, the expected earnings against allof the pure strategies is either positive or zero, and thus you’re guaranteed to break even or better (over the long run) against any pure strategies or combinations thereof.

19

Gee, this is fun. I haven’t had this many responses since I alluded to how ridiculous homeopathy is.

First, for Alan:

[[ “[T]comprehensive rules section and strategy guide have an undeniable air of authenticity”??? ]]

Sure. Any reference to a 150-year-old English law has a certain air of authenticity.

[[ You think there really is an English RPS law of 1842? ]]

Of course not. Doesn’t mean it doesn’t sound good.

[[ I didn’t feel like schlepping my butt down to the public library to examine the OED (I wouldn’t actually expect anything there anyway, but you never know) ]]

I see we have a couple of things in common there. Actually, the main reason I included the reference to Rochambeau was to make a joke about Washington’s victory.

Next, WindFish:

[[ An interlocuter to their board would continuely post on how lame the site was until Master Roshambolla (mentioned in the Staff Report) “breaks the masquerade” ]]

You don’t believe everything you read, do you? Master Roshambollah mentioned to me privately after that post that he was taking advantage of his BSing skills to lead the newbie astray. While he could easily have been telling the truth on the board and lying to me privately, I tend to think that’s not the case, as the “psych experiment” he mentioned would have been seriously flawed, with the self-selecting study group being just one problem.

For JeffB:

Here’s a quote from the website referenced regarding the second annual roshambot contest:

[[ The field was very strong, but Greenberg clearly demonstrated that it was a cut above the rest. MemBot finished a remarkable fourth overall, behind Doug’s main entry, MEMinator, and in a virtual tie with last year’s champion, Iocaine Powder by Dan Egnor ]]

In my report, I mentioned the 1999 contest, which I believe is the one where Iocaine Powder came in first.

For the record: I never took the World RPS Society website completely seriously; in fact, I figured most of it was a joke, with some facts scattered here and there. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if the whole thing was a joke devised by a couple of brothers (although, frankly, the e-mail posted is pretty similar to your run-of-the-mill urban legend about a friend of a friend). It also wouldn’t surprise me if any of the theories espoused there had some truth, whether intentional or not. Sorry if I gave anyone a different impression about how believable the World RPS is. In any case, I still think it’s an enjoyable read.

Rich

20

Are you saying that you based your answer on an interview with an obvious and admitted fraud and liar (is of a tounge-in-cheek and possibly scientific nature) because you “tend to think” he was only lying to the other guy? You knew the website you used for research a joke, but its mentions of made up laws and rules “sound good”? You “figured” it had “some facts scattered here and there”? I hope we can say more about your report!

This is the Straight Dope, man!

I can obviously relate to your laziness when it comes to libraries, but I found at least as many facts on my bookshelf, and that was before I even tried the internet. Google pulled up about ten hits for “games historian” that looked like they might be helpful in finding someone to contact (out of 33 hits total). And a phone call to GAMES Magazine is still a good suggestion.

I hope this isn’t coming across as a flame. Your article was entertaining, but like I said, this is the Straight Dope! I could shrug it off when I thought you’d been pulled in because your sarcas-o-meter was off, but your post reads like you were more interested in amusing stories than checking facts. I hope there’s more to it than that.