In literally every reported crime, ever, there’s a chance that the report is in error, and that no crime actually occurred. Why do you think that needs to be pointed out, in particular, in this case?
And, more to the point, is anyone arguing that fleeting or insignificant touching should be considered sexual assault? I’ve not seen anyone make that argument, so why are you so fixated on arguing against it?
Do you have a particular reason to think this guy is lying, or mistaken, about what he’s seen? Does he have a history of lying about sexual assaults? Do you think that Laine Stanley believes that “fleeting or insignificant touching” should be considered sexual assault? Given that Stanley, in the course of his career, has probably seen hundreds, if not thousands, of people crowd-surfing, doesn’t that add some credence to the idea that he observed something unusual going on in this particular instance?
Yeah, neither does anyone else in this thread.
Let’s be clear, here - there is no charge involved. No one has been arrested. No one has even been identified. We have a report from someone who saw what they thought was a sexual assault in progress, and for some reason, you have taken this as an opportunity to expound, at length, at all the possible things that might have happened that might not have been sexual assault. That seems like a really odd reaction to me. Is there any particular reason you have to assume, automatically, that Laine Stanley doesn’t know what sexual assault looks like? I don’t really know anything about the guy. What reason do you have to doubt his story?
Yeah, that’s kind of the point. We’re talking about sexual assault, which is generally pretty distinct from accidentally touching someone’s butt while they’re crowd surfing. You’re the one who keeps arguing that these are things that are easily confused.
Alas, Layne Staley is dead. This is about Aaron Lewis from Staind, and from what I remember, they suck. Otherwise you’re right. And for some reason this always gets glossed over when we’re discussing sexual abuse or assault, but there is an entire process that is designed to not only determine if people are guilty or not, but determine what kind of punishment they deserve if they are guilty. A maximum sentence is only that.
Marley123, I’m not trying to be obtuse but I have no idea what point you’re making with that last post.
Jimmy Chitwood: “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity."
and “You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing.”
No reason at all, other than not assuming anything.
And that argument about where to place the bar? Nah, straw is not the right critique even if you think it’s a bad illustration.
No, I’m not the one who says they are easily confused. To me, they are pretty distinct. So we’re all in agreement that shoving your hands down someone’s pants – at a concert or on the subway – is sexual assault. Accidentally touching someone’s butt while she is crowd surfing is not sexual assault. Glad we’ve cleared that up.
You’ve said over and over that we don’t know what happened at the concert and it might’ve been innocent or whatever. I said Lewis was probably in a better position than you to make that call, and you said we’re not trying to determine what happened at the concert. So I was trying to remind you that you’ve actually speculated about that a lot.
[QUOTE=Dingbang]
Jimmy Chitwood: “Not so innocently making contact with a girl’s breast,” which is to say groping, is sexual assault even at, like, a Wikipedia level of clarity."
and “You’re asking whether we’re talking about sexual assault or whether we’re talking about “not-so-innocently” grabbing a girl’s breasts or groin. The trouble that you’re experiencing is that those are the same thing.”
[/QUOTE]
That’s very similar to me saying fleeting or insignificant touching is sexual assault. The only difference is it’s the opposite.
You said that it could either be innocent touching or “not-innocent” touching, but either way, you didn’t think it was sexual assault. I said that “not-innocent” groping of breasts or genitals is by-the-book sexual assault, which made you mistaken. Then we started talking about labeling as if anyone other than you was being categorical.
It’s all about the evolution of the discussion. I’ve speculated a lot about what happened at the concert only in the sense of trying to show that we don’t know what happened and therefore shouldn’t jump to conclusions about things as serious as sexual assault. Then I fell into the rabbit hole of defining sexual assault, and here we are.
Perhaps we’re all tangled up in this “not so innocent” phrase I used early on. I meant it to mean not so innocent as in a seventh grader peeking in the girl’s restroom, or a young concertgoer fleetingly making contact with a girl’s body in a harmless way, but it seems we’re giving it a much more sinister meaning. That could be my mistake.
So Straight Dope discussions are only for situations that have real world consequences? The discussion of what constitutes sexual assault is meaningless unless someone’s fate is determined by our thread?
If you watch the video the concert was during the day (so not dark and bright stage lights) and there is a brief view of a woman on the crowd not too far from the front of the stage. The question boils down to whether you believe the guy actually saw something or not. You seem to very much want to believe that he’s making it all up. Why? Is it really that mind blowing to you that there are guys out there who will grope a female crowd surfer? The only reason it’s a discussion of where to set the bar is because you’re unwilling to believe the first-hand witness.
I’m not sure what you think you’re demonstrating, there. Yes, “Not so innocently” grabbing someone’s tit is sexual assault. Which is distinct from “innocently” grabbing someone’s tit. “Not so innocent” is pretty much another way of saying “guilty.”
Well, you’re assuming that the guy can’t tell the difference between regular crowd surfing and sexual assault, for one thing.
Is it really an argument when there’s only one guy involved in it? Nobody’s is disputing your “bar” for sexual assault.
So in your mind, the list of things that could have happened here is essentially 1. totally accidental contact of hand to boob, and 2. intentional contact of hand to boob which is still harmless, and that’s it? That’s the complete possibility space based on what Staind-guy was saying?
Do you think maybe there’s a problem with your heuristic?
I’m glad you clarified that, I was a little unsure where you stood on the issue.
Isn’t that the entire point of your argument, here? That (ahem) Aaron Lewis can’t tell the difference between crowd surfing and sexual assault? If they’re so distinct, why are you so adamant that we can’t know what really happened? We have an eye witness, and as you say, it’s not hard to confuse one for the other.
Yes, you’ve finally figured out what everyone else in this thread is talking about.
Heavy sigh… Yeah, entirely possible the guy was right and he saw actual sexual assault and was right to stop it. It does not blow my mind at all to think some assholes in a crowd would grope the girl. I’m not unwilling to believe the first-hand witness; I just moved on from that to a more esoteric point. I guess I didn’t bring the crowd with me. Too busy crowd surfing, maybe.
I’m trying to point out that you’re overstating your case. You’ve spent most of the thread saying WHAT IF IT WAS INNOCENT TOUCHING and not really dealt with the possibility that maybe it wasn’t.
At the last Woodstock their was a similar complaint from women who were crowdsurfing were being fondled. A singer suggested to the women when a guy comes thru “grab his balls”.
Point made - dont crowdsurf if you dont want to be touched.
As for the incident, once at a basketball game in college we were tossing this girl up and when she came down, my hand accidentally slipped up and I ended up grabbing onto her breast. Yes, it was an accident and I apologized to her.
There’s not much to discuss in that case. Jerk ass concertgoers assault girl, singer does the right thing by stopping it, move on to the next thread.
This started with me noting how people assume nefarious activity in a situation that might not be so clear. Thought that would be kind of an interesting point to explore. Guess not.