Christ, I’m starting to think people here can’t fucking read.
Annnnnd we’re right back where we started…
Grabbing or copping a feel on a stranger vs. touching someone who has voluntarily thrown herself on the crowd, blah, blah, blah, …
Okay, throwing in the towel. You got me. Good work. There’s no more discussion here for me. Sexual assault is bad and trying to discuss what meets that definition does not seem to be a legitimate topic here because it’s so fucking obvious and clear cut and there is absolutely no room for interpretation. The only legit question to discuss is how much much adulation to bestow on the Staind guy. Carry on without me if you wish.
The next girl that surfs over my head in a crowd might get dropped on her ass, because I sure as hell ain’t touching her.
A girl (of any age) should not be crowd-surfing. Really, nobody should. I’ve seen Peter Gabriel do it (in the song “lay your hands on me”) - he would backwards fall into the crowd and they’d pass him around - but he stopped because folks got too grabby (dunno about molesting).
So Aaron Lewis is a “rock star”? He said “fucking” a lot, and he’s wearing t-shirt with Johnny Cash giving the middle finger so he’s got that going for him. Otherwise, never heard of the band,
At a rock concert you have moshing, you have thousands of young people crowded together being whipped into a frenzy by the music and the crowd. Things are going to happen.
And if those things cross the line into sexual assault, there should be consequences.
It’s not hard to avoid sexually assaulting people. Most of is manage to do it every single day of our lives, despite occasionally being close to attractive people. It’s not something people just kind of fall in to. It’s a choice, and a harmful one that needs to be strongly discouraged.
I’ve been to hundreds of wild and aggressive punk rock concerts- the kind of thing where you might end up with a black eye- and I’ve never been grabbed in the breast or crotch, nor have I tried to grab someone. Sexual groping is not normal concert behavior. On the rare occasions where it happens, it’s a few assholes taking advantage of the crowd and their anonymity. The concert gropers are no different than the subway gropers of this world. They a bunch of gross and cowardly opportunists getting their rocks off by harming people who can’t get away.
As far as I’m concerned, once you’ve consented to crowd surfing, all bets are off (not literally all, but with regards to legal consent, pretty much all)
That being said, underage folks shouldn’t be allowed to crowd surf.
Well if that makes me part of rape culture so be it. Personally, I hate rape apologists. And I believe that any alcohol means that you can’t legally give consent. Last election, I came up with a fairly well circulated “Levels of Rape” infographic that made fun of all the rape apologists in the GOP. I’d challenge you to find someone who is more against rape culture than I am.
That said…
Crowd surfing is for people who don’t care about strangers putting their hands all over them. Getting on a crowded subway is not.
The two aren’t even remotely the same. Have a better analogy?
So if a girl is crowdsurfing then you think she’s effectively consented to allow anyone/everyone to, say, penetrate her vaginally? Because while we don’t know exactly what happened at the Staind concert, it was mentioned upthread that singer Iggy Azalea has stopped crowdsurfing because people kept trying to shove their fingers into her vagina. And it sounds like she has good reason to believe this was being done deliberately; I found this brief article on Huffington Post where she’s quoted as saying that she saw people tweeting things like “I’m about to go to the Iggy Azalea show and I’m going to finger her.”
Missed the edit window, but I want to be clear that I’m not asking what someone like Iggy Azalea should do to avoid being fingered by strangers. I am asking whether you believe that the act of crowdsurfing means that the surfer has legally consented to any and all forms of sexual contact with other members of the audience.
Notice where I said “not literally all” in the post you quoted? Vaginal penetration would fall under that part. Hands on the outside of clothing? Fair game when crowd surfing.
And nowhere in my post did I single out girls/women. Same would apply to a guy crowd surfing.
ETA: I see your new post clarifying your question and I shake my head. You can read my original post, can’t you? I said right there “not literally all.”
I crowd surfaced and slam danced a few times in my younger days, and was never groped. Maybe the kind of guys who do that weren’t around then, IDK.
This isn’t limited to men, either. Many years ago, I worked with a woman who went to a Lilith Fair because she liked a lot of the artists who were performing there, and ZOMG she never got hit on so much there BY WOMEN than she ever had by guys in the sleaziest meat market bar. :eek: And they were very aggressive, too; grabbing her butt, pulling her shirt out and looking down it, etc. It goes without saying that alcohol was generally a factor too.
I did notice, and quote, you saying “not literally all [bets are off]”, but you also said “with regards to legal consent, pretty much all [bets are off]”. The meaning of this was not clear to me, which is why I asked, but it sure looked like you were saying members of the crowd were free to assume that the surfer had consented to pretty much everything they legally could consent to. That would exclude things like murder or statutory rape, but Iggy Azalea is a grown woman and her legal consent is all the permission one needs to penetrate her vaginally or engage in most other sex acts with her.
I can read your post, but I can’t read your mind. You said “with regards to legal consent, pretty much all [bets are off]”, not “with regards to hands on the outside of clothing”.
I’m with drewtwo, here. I just can’t conceive of a crowdsurfer saying basically “You can touch my boobs or ass, but only if it’s accidental.” They’re literally throwing themselves at you against your will for about 2 seconds. I can’t understand the mindset that says “Only touch me there if you don’t enjoy it.”
It’d be like ordering an entree at a restaurant…
Waitress: “Salad OK?”
Customer: “Can I have soup?”
W: “Absolutely.”
C: “All right, soup then.”
W: “How dare you.”
No one here is questioning the Iggy scenario, btw, so how about we drop that?
I don’t believe that an experience rock singer stopped in the middle of a concert to yell about how members of the audience were molesting a young girl just because he saw someone give her a two second pat on the butt as she surfed by. Do you?
Do you believe it’s possible, at all, that the two second view the guitarist might have gotten of someone’s hand touching her butt as she surfed by was incorrectly identified by him as a grab?