Yankee attendance during their last losing season (1992): 1,748,737 - about 21,000 per game.
Red Sox attendance during their last losing season (1997): 2,236,146 - almost as many as the Yankees drew in 1996 when they won the World Series.
In fact, Boston fans support the Red Sox better than Yankee fans support the Yankees, at least by attendance. Yankee attendance, relative to the size of the market, is not very good. Even during their latest run the Yankees have never reached 4,000,000 fans in a season, which the Blue Jays accomplished several times when they were good. When the Yankees struggle, as they did in the late 1980s/early 90s, they drop way below league average in attendance. Red Sox attendance NEVER drop as low as Yankee attendance.
You have to admire Red Sox fans; despite cheering for a team that will never win the World Series, they do support the team better than Yankee fans support theirs, and probably better than any team save maybe the Cardinals.
I HAVE to admire Red Sox fans? Actually, no, I DON’T have to admire them, any more than I have to admire people who go to see Keanu Reeves movies or people who go to pizza parlors.
Whether Elvis believes it or not, I WAS a die-hard Yankees fan once, from 1966 (when I went to my first game, featuring Mickey Mantle at first base and Joe Pepitone in center field) until the late 80s, when (a few years after leaving New York City for good) I started to lose interest in baseball. By the early 1990s, I was a tepid baseball fan at best. For 20+ years, I was the the type of fan who memorized every stat, agonized over ever Yankee miscue, and cursed Horace Clarke at the top of my lungs.
In those days, I myself looked down on tepid sport fans. I remember how, during the 1977 and 1978 World Series games, Dodger fans were laughing and cheering, smiling and waving at the camera, even though their team was getting beaten on the field, and I’d SCOFF at those folks. To me, people who arrived late, left early, and didn’t suffer when their team lost were IDIOTS, beneath contempt.
I’m a little older and (I hope) a little wiser now, and I realize something that passionate Red Sox fans don’t: those Dodger fans were RIGHT, and I was wrong. Those Dodger fans were having FUN! They paid their money, they had a good time, and if the Dodgers lost, big freaking deal! I paid my money and got ulcers! So, who’s smarter- the fan who shows up at the ballpark when the weather’s nice and gets a few hours entertainment for his money? Or the fan who shows up in the freezing cold, the pouring, rain AND the blistering heat and forks over big money for the “privilege” of stewing over a game that means a LOT more to him than it does to any of the participants?
I don’t take baseball nearly as seriously as I used to (I go to an occasional Texas Longhorns or minor league game, I may watch a few innings of the World Series each fall… that’s about it). To a fan like Elvis, that’s a sign of moral weakness on my part. And the Astorian of 25 years ago probably would have agreed with him. But the Astorian of 2003 really doesn’t care.
Right now, hearing a passionate Red Sox fan insist that I’m not a TRUE fan is about as hurtful as hearing a sci-fi geek scoff that I’m not a “true” Star Trek fan because I only go to the Star Trek movies that get decent reviews, and only after the opening weekend crowds have died down. In true Elvis fashion, passionate Trekkies would yell “Ha! If you were a REAL fan, you’d go to ALL the Star Trek movies, even the lousy ones! A TRUE fan would go to the premiere! A DIE-HARD fan memorizes every line of every movie, and obsesses over each line’s meaning! You guys who just go to Star Trek movies occasionally for some mindless entertainment make me sick!”.
Fine. So I make some geek sick. But I save a lot of money, time and aggravation by only going to movies that are likely to be entertaining. I don’t think it’s a badge of honor to sit through a bad movie, and I don’t see how it’s a sign of moral superiority to spend a lot of money to watch a bad baseball team.
William Shatner and Patrick Stewart are in show biz. So are the Red Sox. By all means, go see them if you enjoy it. Just don’t give me any lectures about this being MORE than just an entertainment issue. Dodger fans knew better 25 years ago, and I know better today.
Cubs fans, Red Sox fans, and Yankee fans have nothing to complain about.
I am a Detroit Tiger fan…I have lots to complain about!
Oh well, we Bengal Backers will always have our memories of 1984. It has almost been 20 years, but once upon a time the Tigers used to be good.
Oh yeah, I agree that Roger Clemens is a dickhead! Hopefully the Tigers will deny him #300. I am not going to bet the farm on it, but it would be nice.
You claimed to be a “die-hard” Yankee fan, not the casual one that you now describe yourself to be. If you get your enjoyment out of showing up late, leaving early, and not actually understanding or caring about anything you’re watching, then that’s fine. Just don’t claim equal status with those who do care, m’kay?
Re Fenway, yes, the seats between the bases are fine, even if tight on knee room, but there aren’t that many of them, they cost out the wazoo, and they’re filled with cell-phone yuppies (the local law firms take bunches of interns there with season tickets). “Hey, Chip! Put the game on TV! See me? Hey, that Martinez fellow pitching for the Bostons looks like he’s pretty good”. Probably just as bad in Wrigley. FWIW, it’s worse up in the luxury boxes, except for the ability to go inside (it’s like a hotel room) and wait for the next round of horse doovers to be delivered by room service while watching the game on TV. Been there, done that several times, enjoyed the free beer, but c’mon.
But the affordable seats have bad views from the RF corner, and the bleachers are filled with drunk college freshmen (from metro NYC, as often as not) acting moronically. Gives the whole place a bad name. Yes, it’s a dump, although those who haven’t been to many other ballparks may not realize it, and it does need to go.
One theory is that Fenway sells out because tickets are relatively scarce - they seem more valuable that way. Also true for Wrigley, I think. By contrast, the old stadium in Cleveland never sold out even once except for 1 World Series game - their advance sales were negligible partly because you could be sure of getting a good seat by walking up. Besides the Tribe’s constant suckitude, that is.
The Red Sox Curse isn’t of the Bambino, it’s more like the Curse of Tom Yawkey, who doesn’t deserve the sainthood he’s accorded. All those years of keeping the team white (he tried out Jackie Robinson just for show once), and hiring employees based on their congeniality as drinking partners, kept the franchise from being truly a contender for decades. The myth was kept alive by sportswriters who also got drunk with him - the ones who didn’t couldn’t get material to write about and got reassigned. Since his death, it’s been the Curse of George Steinbrenner’s Bank Account instead.
Uh, NO, Elvis, I DIDN’t say I’m a die-hard Yankee fan. What I said, and I quote was:
even though I haven’t followed baseball closely in several years, and haven’t really been a die-hard Yankee fan since the Eighties… it’s STILL loads of fun to watch embittered, pathetic Red Sox fans whine!
Got it? I WAS a die-hard once upon a time. Just not any more. Not in about 15 years or so.
In retrospect, I think the passionate, Yankee-loving Astorian of the Seventies was pretty silly. Kinda like die-hard Red Sox fans are today.
Getting back to Mr Clemens, must speak up as an early 80s California Angel supporter who understands – I should think ‘Only one strike away!’ should be carved on my headstone…in fact, I actually shouted that at my mum who was calling me to do some chore, ‘Oh, wait, mummy, we’re one strike away from the pennant!’
In 1986, Mr Clemens was the bane of my young existence…and my favourite moment was when ‘Rocket’ forever became ‘Crybaby Clemens’ for me – he’d raced a runner to the bag at first, and the call went to the runner…did he argue with the umpire? Why, yes! He also threw himself on the ground and started to crawl around the first base bag, pounding on the ground, etc…I was in bloody hysterics, and if I could remember the exact game, I would beg Major League Baseball for a tape loop…‘Please, sir, play this when he goes into the Hall of Fame…’
So sorry to natter…it’s not like I ever re-live 12 October 1986…no, of course not…one strike…why did Gary Lucas hit Rich Gedman…Dave Henderson…poor Donnie Moore…excuse me, I’m going to have some choco biskies now…
I don’t think you can conclude a lot about the fans by looking at the attendance numbers. Both Yankee and Red Sox fans are, in my opinion, both passionate and knowledgeable. Whenever I talk to a Red Sox fan I have to mention Bucky Dent and Bill Buckner, it’s always fun to watch the steam puff out of their ears.
Does anyone have a reference for the rule that you have to go into the Hall of Fame with the team you spent the most time with? Never heard that until now.
For Red Sox Clemens anti-fans, would you feel the same way if he hadn’t left the team? Or is he a jerk because he wears pinstripes?
My supervisor at uni grew up in Boston and is still a passionate Red Sox fan…whenever he criticised my work (constructively, of course!) I would nod humbly and then remark, ‘That Bucky Dent…always my fave Red Sock…’
I have learnt, if you’re going to twit a Sox fan, be prepared…this guy is a master at saying just the right thing about MY players to leave me speechless…he’s a master!
I’m guessing Mr Clemens was a jerk even back in his wee Little League kit…
(I must admit, in fairness, I enjoy listening to Jerry Remy on NESN, and Nomar ‘Twitchy’ Garciaparra is a favourite of mine…I like showing a vid of him from a play off match to English friends who invariably ask, ‘What is with the toe dance? Is this typical?’)
No, no no. There’s no such rule. There’s no rule at all. All that happened was that the Hall of Fame - a private institution that doesn’t have any legal connection to the major leagues - simply re-affirmed that THEY have the right to determine what team logo would go on a player’s cap. It’s their building, they can do as they please.
The purpose of this reaffirmation is to prevent players from auctioning off the plaque logo to a team where it would be inappropriate - for instance, Wade Boggs’s alleged deal with the Devil Rays to have a Ray logo on his plaque.
Thanks, RickJay. I can see where you wouldn’t want say Reggie going in as an Oriole or Clemens as a Blue Jay or Boggs as a Devil Ray, but it seems to me if you have 5+ years with two different teams, you ought to be able to choose which one you go in as. If Boggs and Clemens felt mistreated by the Bosox, they should have the option to be Yankee Hall of Famers.
I’ve spent decades repressing the memory of some of these names, and now you bring them up. OH MY GOD, the flashbacks. You are truly one evil SOB, Mr. MSU 1978
Tresh wasn’t that bad, probably shouldn’t have named him. Remember Steve Whitaker? Jim Spencer- what a putz. And Don Gullett? Killer for the Reds, dogmeat for the Yankees. Oh, and Celerino Sanchez.
C- Jake Gibbs
1B- Danny Cater
2B- Horace Clarke
SS- Gene Michael
3B- Jerry Kenney
LF- Roy White
CF- Bobby Murcer
RF- Ron Woods
P- Mike “Yo, Fritz, Your Wife’s Cute- Wanna Trade?” Kekich
Of course, when Kekich got in trouble, Houk could always go to the bullpen for Steve “I Can’t Get Anybody Out, But the Kids Love My Folly Floater” Hamilton.
Ah, memories!
P.S. Has any baseball player ever had a better bad name than Dooley Womack?
Why did he hit him? Because Gene " The Genius" Mauch was thinking too much once again and OVER managing and brought in Lucas with the crowd in a frenzy. Lucas was nervous and hit Gedman. Nice going Genius. (where is he today?)
At least the Angels finally won the whole thing. They did something The Cubs and Red Sox WILL NEVER do. Win the World Series.
While we’re on the subjects of the Yankees and Angels, I heard an interesting suggestion the other day. The scoreboard at Yankee Stadium should have a movie of Darryl Strawberry jumping up and down, holding a crack pipe. They could call him the Rally Junkie.
Oh, crikey, djf750, thank you, thank you so much for bringing up Gene Mauch…I had just got out of the fetal position…
My ‘fling’ with the 80s Angels was cos of Doug DeCinces, so I came back ‘home’ to Baltimore after he were sacked by Mike Port…nowadays I have to follow the Orioles by comp as I simply cannot bear to listen to the tele announcers…
I have a couple of quibbles with your numbers, RickJay. While it is certainly true that the Yankees attendance dropped badly in the late 80s / early 90s, those were some pretty bad years. Four bad years will drive down anyone’s attendance, save perhaps the Cubs and Cardinals.
One amazing thing about the Red Sox over the last several decades, and part of what keeps them distinct from those lovable losers the Cubs, is that they have not had a prolonged stretch of bad years.
Yes, they did have three losing seasons in a row from 92-94… but they were only 80-82 in '93. And their average attendance did drop in '94, although that could have been an effect of the looming strike/lockout.
Anybody care to guess when the last time before '92 and '94 that Boston finished more than 10 games under .500? That would be 1966, the year before the Impossible Dream season. That’s twenty-six years between bad teams - a pretty amazing run.
(They did finish eight games under two times in that stretch).
Boston’s attendance was bad in the early 60s, when the team was consistently below .500 - that was a different era, though.
It would be interesting to see if Boston’s attendance would drop if they were bad for a long stretch. They would probably hold their attendance better than Toronto or Baltimore have recently, but I expect it would drop a fair amount. Possibly not as much as the Yankees did when they were bad, though.
Speaking as a Yankee fan, and more importantly a baseball fan, I hope we don’t find out - I like it when the Red Sox are good. It makes the games and season more fun when your best rival is competitive.
And holding the Yankees up to the 4,000,000 standard is pretty tough - if I’m right, no-one has hit that mark, or even come close, except the Blue Jays. I think the best any other team has done is the Dodgers at 3.6 million in 1982, although I could have missed a better figure.
To get back on topic, I do not think Roger Clemens is a dickhead. I didn’t think so when he was in Boston, either. Is he egotistical? Sure. Was the glove thing stupid? Yup.
Would I like him if I knew him socially? I doubt it, but then I probably wouldn’t be able to stand Pettitte or Rivera either.
