Roman Writing Vsing V Instead Of U

I ran a search on the archives, but did not come up with anything…sorry if this has been addressed already and I couldn’t unearth it!

The question actually came up the other day in my 3rd grade class: “Mr Wright, they spelled a word wrong on this old coin!” “Oh?” “Yeah, they put a V in trust instead of a U.” I told the kids about how the Romans used to put a V instead of a U. I told them how I had been told that it was so they didn’t have to carve a curve…and how that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, what with all the R’s, B’s, and of course, S’s!

As far as I can remember, J and W were the only letters added after the Romans, so that wouldn’t have been it (or would it?..) So, why DID the Romans carve V’s instead of U’s?

YOVRS IN CVRIOSITY,

Bill

Hint-- curves are hard to pull off with a chisel.

That’s all.

Because it was the same letter to them, not two separate ones. And it was not pronounced like English “v” is. Used as a consonant, it was pronounced like English “w.”

Somewhere along the line, the vowel form and the consonant form were separated into “U” and “V” respectively. Before then, “V” sufficed for both forms.

I don’t know how I failed to read your post in its entirety. Sorry.

This may help.

Ducking out now, out of shame and embarrassment.

There just wasn’t a need for the U yet. The Romans added the Z to accomodate certain Grrek loanwords like zephyrus, “the west wind”, but the sounds for V, W and U were all represented by the single letter V. The “rounded V”, U, was found in late Latin inscriptions, but the differentiation of vocalic U from consonantal V wasn’t found in written English until the late 17th century.

Some sounds we distinguish between in English arent quite so hard and fast in Aisian languages, most famously L’s and R’s. Similarly, we have sonds that are to a degree interchangeable in English e.g. butt-er and budd-er for the dairy product one puts on bread. The simple answer is that when the Latin alphabet was first being put to use the sounds for U, V, and W were not yet hard and fast rules, and when they became so, it took awhile for the alphabet to “catch up” and reflect the usage.

OK, fine. U and W sound more or less alike, and are similar phonetically. But V? That’s a completely different sound! I can’t believe Latin just didn’t distinguish it like we don’t distinguish voiced and unvoiced TH.

You’re right. The letter V (or consonantal U) had a completely different sound attached to it in Latin thas it does in English. Why’s that so hard to believe?

The Romance languages underwent sound changes on the way from Vulgar Latin to becoming French, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, etc. One of these changes that happened to all of them was the shift from the Classical Latin /w/ to /v/. As that happened, the written letter didn’t change, although its sound changed. /w/ is a bilabial approximant, articulated using both lips. /v/ is a labiodental fricative, using the lower lip and upper teeth. All that has to happen is for the teeth to get on the lips, and /w/ changes to /v/. Actually, there was an intermediate stage, [[symbol]b[/symbol]], which is a bilabial fricative, and Spanish still has this sound.

This sound shift from /w/ to /v/ is very common in many languages throughout the world; it has happened in all the Germanic languages except English, which has kept the older /w/; in Persian—the modern Iranian pronunciation has /v/ whereas Dari in Afghanistan has kept the older /w/; in Hebrew—the original /w/ has become /v/ in Ashkenazic Hebrew (probably from German influence), while Arabic has kept the older /w/. In the Indic language that came from Sanskrit, [v] and [w] share the same phoneme. It has incompletely shifted: sometimes it comes out [v], other times [w], and other times in between.

We still use “u” to spell the sound of /w/, in words like quake and guava.

English didn’t have /v/ as a phoneme until after the Norman Invasion, when Middle English began to incorporate a lot of French words. Old English did have a [v] sound, but it was an allophone of the /f/ phoneme when it came between vowels.

Originally, F, U, V, W, and Y all came from one and the same letter in the ancient Semitic alphabet. It originally looked like Y and it was pronounced [w]. The top got bent over to make F (which had the sound of [w] in Ancient Greek), and the bottom was dropped to make V. The Roman V was basically the vowel /u/, but when another vowel followed it, it had the glide sound of /w/.

The letter u was invented by Carolingian scribes in the 9th century, who developed an elegant hand called uncial with the rounded letterforms. Of course, they didn’t distinguish U from V; they used the rounded u form as lowercase for both vocalic u and consonantal v. The two were still considered one and the same letter. After printing was invented, the rounded u was used as the lowercase of both u and v, and the angular V was used as the uppercase for both.

It wasn’t until maybe the 18th century that printers decided it would be useful to have two letters there instead of one. Thus the uppercase U and the lowercase v came into being. The count of alphabet letters went up by one.

Ever wonder why W is called double U and not double V, since it’s so obviously a double V? Because V was U until only a couple centuries ago. Again, it was thought useful to develop a letter specially for the consonantal sound.

The last letter added to the alphabet, to make 26, was J. It wasn’t added until the 19th century! Before that, everyone thought of I and J as the same letter. That’s why Washington, D.C. has no J Street. The next street after Eye Street is K Street. J didn’t get its own slot in the alphabet until after the District of Columbia was platted.

Day one, Latin One, first sentence–Via est longa, the road is long, pronounced Whee-ah isst long-ah. And then we meet that miserable Roman Sunday School Book perfect young twit, Marcus–pronounced Markus, who went with his parents to the Circus Maximus–pronounced just like it looks but maybe carved in stone as Circvs Maximvs. Lord, I hated that prig Marcus and his running dog buddy Lucius–they also had a dog named Canine, which maybe Latin for Spot.

Come on guys, I only had one year of Latin and that was in 1956.

So why C as a numeral?

“canine” just means “dog.” The Latin for “Spot” would be “Macula.”

“Vene Macula. Vene Macula curset. Curse, Macula, curse.” :slight_smile:

I would imagine because they carved their 'C’s looking somewhat like sideways 'V’s: <

All the characters with curved strokes can substitue straight lines and angles for the curves. We just notice it with ‘U’, because the substitution makes it resemble what evolved into a seperate letter.

er…that should have been

“Vide Macula. Vide Macula curset. Curse, Macula, curse.”

I was thinking about that Caesar quotation (Veni, Vidi, Vinci) and got Veni on the brain

:smack:

the Cynic, I was a little concerned about you when I read: “Come Spot. Come Spot run. Run Spot run.” I thought we might be into a little classic bad animal porn.

In Czech, the V in “double yew” is “Dvoity V”

which is “Double V”. Not “Double Yew”

Because in Soviet Russia…

Or rather, in Czech Republic, we have Jan Hus.

I apologize. That last post was unnecessarily confrontational.

If I may,

“The Latin alphabet used V/v for both consonantal w and vocalic u. In late Latin, however, the sound of w became v, and the sounds u, v and w were generally not distinguished in writing. Enetually the letters U/u and W/w were derived from latin V/v as a comparatively modern device for differentiating the sounds written with V/v in Latin”.

I.J. Gelb and R.M. Whiting
The New Golier New Multimedia Encyclopedia

Pardon hasty typographical errors, of course.

Jesus Christ, I’ve gotten a little too waaaaay bent out of shape over imagined linguistic debates.

I think I shall lie down momentarily.

Fascinating! So how’d /s/ and /k/ both get associated with C?

“K” is a Greek letter. “C” is Roman. They both represented the same sound, and we ended up with both 'of 'em.

Now, how “C” gets double duty with the “S” sound, I’m not sure of that one.