[QUOTE=Magiver]
Then I guess we’ll have to disagree on this. I’ve flown in open cockpit aircraft(such as an Aircam) at speeds much higher than an automobile. Anything blocking the wind creates a slipstream of air around the area behind it. It would be like driving in a convertible car.
[/QUOTE]
So a dog carrier with a makeshift windscreen has the same aerodynamics of an aircraft fuselage? Gee, if Mitt slapped an airfoil on top, Fido could have flown to Canada himself. :rolleyes:
The dog carrier is a big flat surface that creates all kinds of turbulence, so that lets the wind out of your analogy, so to speak.
It was very likely the dog was terrified for 12 hours. A very traumatic event that in no way equates to the option of sticking its nose out the window when it felt like it.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
It was very likely the dog was terrified for 12 hours. A very traumatic event that in no way equates to the option of sticking its nose out the window when it felt like it.
[/QUOTE]
There’s no logic to your statement. If the dog was terrified in the cage it would be terrified in the car’s interior. Any dog I’ve ever traveled with would stick it’s head out the window if I didn’t roll it up enough to prevent it.
[QUOTE=Fear Itself]
So a dog carrier with a makeshift windscreen has the same aerodynamics of an aircraft fuselage? Gee, if Mitt slapped an airfoil on top, Fido could have flown to Canada himself. :rolleyes:
The dog carrier is a big flat surface that creates all kinds of turbulence, so that lets the wind out of your analogy, so to speak.
[/QUOTE]
All forward surfaces create turbulance. It’s just a matter of how far back laminar air flow will travel before it breaks up. You experience it every time you drive behind the slipstream of a tractor trailer. The area immediately behind any surface blocking the wind negates the effect of the wind. And I would rather travel in a cage on top of a car than in the dark stuffy belly of an aircraft surounded by luggage. A pet would hear the roar of the engine plus all the machinery of the wheels extending/retracting. All this while climbing at 5000 feet per minute.
[QUOTE=Magiver]
This debate consists of series of straw dogs. There is no evidence of mistreatment of the animal. It was secured in a cage with a windscreen. There is no evidence the dog was not relieved. All the article stated was that their stops were made at gas stations.
If anything, the dog experienced the complete opposite of mistreatment. Any dog I’ve ever dealt with loved to sniff the air while riding in a car. The cage with a windscreen must have been a little slice of heaven. The alternative in a station wagon was a cage placed in the back. That would have kept the dog away from the airflow and also increased the level of motion disorientation. Not a pleasant environment for a large dog.
The only debate is the level of safety attributed to the animal. Anything outside the steel cage of a car interior will be less safe. A rollover would be fatal. There should be no debate on this issue. But the comparisons made in this thread are flawed in respect to the level of safety. A dog is basically food that has been domesticated into a pet. It cannot be compared to a baby or a child. The level of safety afforded children will always be higher.
[/QUOTE]
So…the fact that you’re lacking the common sense to denounce Mr. Romney is balanced by the fact that a dog isn’t a child. Well, at least we’ve got THAT down.
Now, I’m sure you’ve heard of the saying that you “can have too much of a good thing”. I’m sure you figure where I’m going, but if being strapped to a car and driven 12 hours is a dog’s idea of fun because the dog can stick its nose out of a window to garner a smell or three, then if you like roller coasters, you can be shot out of a trebuchet. I mean…roller coasters are good! Let’s have more of the good! We’ll even strap you to a chair and then sling you into the next county.
I realize that, after reading, this entire thing sounds hostile. I’m intending more snark than hostility.
[QUOTE=Magiver]
It was in a cage with a windscreen so it’s no different than being in a car with the windows open or running around the backyard.
[/QUOTE]
really? You’d equate being put in a cage, on the roof of a car, for 12 hours, having to crap in the cage, being hosed off, and put back in the cage while wet to running around in the backyard, just because you’d have a windscreen?
[QUOTE=Magiver]
There’s no logic to your statement. If the dog was terrified in the cage it would be terrified in the car’s interior. Any dog I’ve ever traveled with would stick it’s head out the window if I didn’t roll it up enough to prevent it.
[/QUOTE]
I think you mistyped. No way you could draw that conclusion. No way. Driving in a cage on top of room same as riding in car. No way
I think the opinion of Romney’s actions depends on how you think of dogs:
If you are like me, you see them as sentient beings. Although not sophisticated, they think, they feel, they get sad, nervous, insecure, happy, etc. They can even learn a few words. In this sense, they are much like perpetual toddlers.
In my mind, then, putting a dog into a cage and strapping it to the roof of the car is equivalent to doing the same to a toddler. Although they may be (somewhat) shielded from the wind, they are still left in a scary situation without the faculties to understand what’s happening, where they are going, or how long this is going to last.
In short, it’s an incredibly cruel experience that is likely to scar their memory for a long time.
If, instead, a dog is just a “beast”, then I guess it’s just so much cargo that can get shoved onto the roof.
Personally, I shudder at the insensitivity of someone who believes the latter, and pray that such a person would never get elected to the Presidency.
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan]
Actually, my understanding is that things can be much worse on airplanes, especially if you have a largish animal that has to go in the baggage compartment. Seems they don’t hold pressure. Can’t imagine it’d be much fun to ride in a cargo box at 30K feet with low air pressure and no heat.
[/QUOTE]
:::Sigh::: Tuck we have been over this before.If the cargo hold was not pressurized, it would destroy the airplane due to the pressure imbalance between the unpressurized hold and where the passengers sit. The floor of the plane is not strong enough to hold against the pressure. Do a search.
the hold is also heated the same as the passenger compartment, as the heating/cooling comes from the pressurization system.
I don’t have a dog in this race, I would just like to say that over the last 25 years, attitudes about transporting animals has changed a bunch. Twenty five years ago it was common for a dog to be transported untethered in the bed of a truck. for that matter 25 years ago it was common for babies to be held in their mother’s arms while driving. It seems like a lot of people here are looking at this incident through 2007 eyes, not what was common and acceptable at the time.
Now before you hit replay and come back at me, consider this. When I was a baby I rode in my mother’s arms when in the car. Does this make her a bad mother? Before you answer, be aware that there were no child safety seats in the early 1950s when I was a baby. RTFirefly count me in with Sam here. I can and have secured stuff to cars and trucks and never had it come loose. I can guarantee that it won’t come loose, as I know what I am doing. sorry if you don’t.
Am I the only one who thought it was rather harsh for the humans? I thought that the predetermined stops for gas and “that’s it” tough on the people riding in the car. What if someone really, really has to go?
I think the issue is that he was so completely unaware that he might have done anything wrong by putting the carrier on the roof that he was describing this as evidence of his leadership ability. I think it was probably pretty cruel to the dog, but I also could see this as a mistake a young father going on a long family trip might make…but, Mitt didn’t think he did anything wrong! Couple this with the predetermined stops at gas stations that Zoggie mentions and we can imagine what kind of leader he might be. I would recommend looking into his history as a business man - I remember years ago reading about his involvement with plant closings, and the draconian pattern continues…
[QUOTE=maevetighe]
I think the issue is that he was so completely unaware that he might have done anything wrong by putting the carrier on the roof that he was describing this as evidence of his leadership ability. I think it was probably pretty cruel to the dog, but I also could see this as a mistake a young father going on a long family trip might make…but, Mitt didn’t think he did anything wrong! Couple this with the predetermined stops at gas stations that Zoggie mentions and we can imagine what kind of leader he might be. I would recommend looking into his history as a business man - I remember years ago reading about his involvement with plant closings, and the draconian pattern continues…
[/QUOTE]
I’m guessing you and Zoggie did not have an engineer for a father.
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
I think you mistyped. No way you could draw that conclusion. No way. Driving in a cage on top of room same as riding in car. No way
[/QUOTE]
Big honkin way. Riding in a cage inside a car would suck for a dog. They couldn’t get near a window. In a station wagon the cage would be in the back which would add to misery.
My buddy has taken his dogs flying and that’s a vehicle that’s bouncing all over the place. Granted they can’t get their head out the window but it’s not for trying. They love it.
[QUOTE=Rick]
:::Sigh::: Tuck we have been over this before.If the cargo hold was not pressurized, it would destroy the airplane due to the pressure imbalance between the unpressurized hold and where the passengers sit. The floor of the plane is not strong enough to hold against the pressure. Do a search.
the hold is also heated the same as the passenger compartment, as the heating/cooling comes from the pressurization system.
I don’t have a dog in this race, I would just like to say that over the last 25 years, attitudes about transporting animals has changed a bunch. Twenty five years ago it was common for a dog to be transported untethered in the bed of a truck. for that matter 25 years ago it was common for babies to be held in their mother’s arms while driving. It seems like a lot of people here are looking at this incident through 2007 eyes, not what was common and acceptable at the time.
Now before you hit replay and come back at me, consider this. When I was a baby I rode in my mother’s arms when in the car. Does this make her a bad mother? Before you answer, be aware that there were no child safety seats in the early 1950s when I was a baby. RTFirefly count me in with Sam here. I can and have secured stuff to cars and trucks and never had it come loose. I can guarantee that it won’t come loose, as I know what I am doing. sorry if you don’t.
[/QUOTE]
But it was also my understanding that Romney dug up this story to show what a nice guy he is, not how life was “back in the day”.
[QUOTE=Least Original User Name Ever]
But it was also my understanding that Romney dug up this story to show what a nice guy he is, not how life was “back in the day”.
[/QUOTE]
I was actually going to point out the difference in life today versus my childhood. I’m pushing 50 and my parents were depression era people. We fed our pets dry food and table scraps and the concept of a headstone for a pet was considered moronic. Life was truly simpler “back then” and we made due with what we had. We improvised and made things work. Today we would simply hook up a trailer and haul stuff around but that would have been a huge luxury item back then.
Looking at this from the perspective of time I can see my dad putting a dog cage on top of the car because our station wagon would have been hell on earth for the dog. It wasn’t air-conditioned which meant the windows were down. Back then if you had the back window down the exhaust would get into the back of the car. It trully sucked riding in the back.
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
And if he’d simply said, “I can’t imagine what possessed me to do such a thing, but it was a long time ago,” that would be how I’d feel too.
But he’s standing up in the here and now for what he did then. So the 24 years doesn’t matter for diddly.
Well then, everything’s hunky-dory!
The problem is, you can be pretty damned sure something’s attached firmly to your car, and still have it work its way loose over a period of hours. Trust me on this one, OK?
And you wouldn’t want to have a dog running around in the bed of a pickup truck on a 12-hour trip either.
Voyager, Jackmannii, and Kimstu have all suggested that the dog should have been in the car. And now you’re saying “I suppose I’m going to hell for that, huh?” Nice strawman. Consider it torched.
[/QUOTE]
Would have loved to see mitt-wit strapped to roof of car in a snowstorm instead of one much greater then him the dog
[QUOTE=Magiver]
I was actually going to point out the difference in life today versus my childhood. I’m pushing 50 and my parents were depression era people. We fed our pets dry food and table scraps and the concept of a headstone for a pet was considered moronic. Life was truly simpler “back then” and we made due with what we had. We improvised and made things work. Today we would simply hook up a trailer and haul stuff around but that would have been a huge luxury item back then.
Looking at this from the perspective of time I can see my dad putting a dog cage on top of the car because our station wagon would have been hell on earth for the dog. It wasn’t air-conditioned which meant the windows were down. Back then if you had the back window down the exhaust would get into the back of the car. It trully sucked riding in the back.
[/QUOTE]
I am 15 years older than you so that logic wont fly. I never saw a person carrying dogs in cages when I was growing up. NEVER. How come people didn’t strap cages on their cars and just take dogs for rides…Because they would have been creamed fpr cruelty ,thats why. When I was a kid my dogs were like the ones I have now. They did not have a better tolerance for cruelty way back then. This qualifies as doggie torture. Portable Guantanamo.
