Ron Paul: Honest or Nuts?

I think you’re in the right neighborhood, but I’d modify it somewhat: Bin Laden was trying to convince a global audience that his cause was righteous and true and blah blah blah, and much of what he said was wrong or self-serving. Then there’s the whole mass murderer thing. So you can’t take him at face value uncritically and it’s true he was self-aggrandizing in the extreme. But that doesn’t mean you can ignore what he says about what he’s doing and make up new motives out of whole cloth and then say you know what he’s after. “They hate us for our freedoms” is pretty much exactly that, and saying it’s 50-50 between U.S. foreign policy and U.S. culture is not that wrong, but near it.

The whole point of terrorism is to scare people into doing what you want. If you don’t tell them what you want, it doesn’t work. So Bin Laden did say what he wanted and why he was doing it. The stuff surrounding that - we only want to help Muslims, our struggle is justified, we’re being oppressed, we’re going to win - is all bullshit. But if you say that Bin Laden’s own comments about what he was doing and why can be ignored and replaced with a bunch of generic pap about how he hated American culture because it’s just so great, then what you’re saying is that Osama Bin Laden didn’t know the first thing about terrorism.

I think Ron Paul is a straight shooter and says what he believes (at least a helluva lot more than most politicians…he can be dodgy too but in this day and age that is a relative thing and he is not as bad as most). For that I respect him. I wish more politicians did that. John Huntsman seems to be of a similar stripe. Who is leading the polls? Romney and Perry who change positions with alarming regularity (especially Romney).

That said, while I respect Paul for the courage of his convictions his convictions are pretty fucked-up.

Make no mistake, I’d pull the lever for Paul before Romney or Perry if they were my only choices. I wish more people saw the, “I’ll say whatever you want to hear so I get elected” strategy for the bullshit it is. That said I’d rather have a root canal than have to vote for any of them (well…Huntsman I just might manage to pull a lever for but he has no chance…Bachman I’d sooner shoot myself than vote for her).

Which would make him honest and nuts on a number of issues, since it’s not like those two things are mutually exclusive to begin with.

I agree hence what I wrote a bit after that…

“That said, while I respect Paul for the courage of his convictions his convictions are pretty fucked-up.” :slight_smile:

I think he is honestly telling his opinion. That doesn’t mean he’s not nuts too, but I don’t see that as politicians go he is any nuttier than others, except that he won’t shy away from saying what he thinks is the truth. That is a political non-starter in any coalition building system, where a politician must build coalitions by being vague about his/her exact positions until it is necessary to make a decision.

The following may be a bit rambling and incoherent (more than my usual) because I am still trying to get a handle on it in my head.

I guess, for me, I want candidates who have a philosophy of government and what it should be and do for the people. Each candidate puts their philosophy out there and the people vote on it.

Instead we get mired in the minutiae. “Drill baby drill” and such.

There are far too many issues to convey to voters. More, it is political suicide to put anything like specifics into your campaign. The more vague the better. If you are specific on a given policy you absolutely will piss someone off and they will scream and yell about why you are a horrible choice.

Rather, in my perfect world, the candidates would elucidate a philosophy of government and the principles they would be guided by. One never knows what the future will bring but a clear vision will guide you in your decision making.

I think Paul, more than most, has this. I think Romney and Perry don’t. Those guys will sell out to the highest bidder. Paul would be guided by his principles and that is what I want in a president.

Bahcmann also seems to be guided by her principles but she is so batshit insane we can only pray she never gets more power than she has.

All that said I find Paul to be scary. On the one hand I like that he seems to care about rationality. I notice this because, for a conservative, I occasionally hear him express opinions I agree with. This tells me the guy is not hidebound but will look at a given case and make a considered opinion.

However, much like on the SDMB, while I may respect an honest opinion there are lots and lots of opinions I find unfathomable. While Paul has some astonishing clear thinking (given the current republican crop) he is also waaaay out there on other issues.

As such I am left in a quandary.

If they made me vote today (put a gun to my head) and all that was on offer was the republican field I’d pull for Huntsman then Paul then I’d tell them to just pull the fucking trigger. I would not be happy with either of those two but the rest? Just kill me.

There was an Economist article recently that suggested Obama’s best chance is that the Republican field sucks. Obama, in their view, should probably lose but the competition is so bad he might win. I am sad to say I think the Economist is correct.

I don’t think he’s nuts, but his presidential strategy is crazy. I actually think he doesn’t want to be president, or he’d see what works and modify his strategy accordingly.

He could just push the things the people in the primary want, and then only push the things the Dems want in the general election, but instead he discusses all of it at once. He wouldn’t have to lie, just focus on the part that actually has a chance of getting him nominated.

Utter nonsense. Our cultural values had everything to do with why he objected to the presence of bases in Saudi Arabia. If the US was a theocratic Islamic state, he wouldn’t have any reason to disapprove of the presence of bases.

Also, this.

I’m not sure how honest I think he is. His constant stream of craziness certainly makes him seem honest, but I don’t really think his self-promoted image as the candidate of liberty holds up to a lot of scrutiny. But I also think that he really might honestly believe that letting states criminalize condom use is a good way to enhance peoples’ personal freedom.

I definitely think he’s nuts, though.

Err…nope. You are wrong.

Unless you want to suggest his stated reasons were not his real reasons I think we need to go with that cite.

(I’d quote it but frankly it is all relevant to this response so I can’t…click the link and read for yourself.)

Umm… what? The first two paragraphs from your OBL cite on his stated reasons:

If the cultural values of the US was that of a theocratic Islamic state, how would these even be issues? Look, I don’t buy into the “they hate our freedoms” or Islam is evil bullshit and I tune out anyone using the term Islamofascism, but differences in cultural values were clearly a motivating factor.

Those are quotes from the Quran.

ObL then provides his reasoning after that.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

From your link:

There’s a lot more than that, of course, and criticism of our policies and actions in the Middle East make up the bulk of his complaint, but he does dwell at length on what he sees as evil in US culture and society.

Now, I agree, bin Laden almost certainly wouldn’t have attacked us if we didn’t have troops stationed in the Middle East. But only because his immediate goal was to control and consolidate the Arabian peninsula into a single fundamentalist Islamic nation. If he’d somehow succeeded at that, I have little doubt he’d have become a threat to the West, for the all the reasons he outlines in his letter. But the immediate reason for the attack was that we’re an impediment to his vision of a new Caliphate.

Paul is more accurate than the rest of his party on the motivation behind 9/11. While bin Laden may have been deeply offended by Western secularism, I very much doubt that he could convince so many people to die to combat it. It seems to me that the presence of Western troops in Saudi Arabia would be much more of a motivation for the guys who actually ran the planes into the buildings. The notion that “they hate us for our freedoms” begs the question of why would only one Western nation be singled out for that reason?

With regard to the Federal Reserve, Paul is in loopyland. If you want to really kill the economy and entomb it in concrete, then put the US on the gold standard.

Paul is that whacky uncle that nobody wants to sit next to on Thanksgiving. He rants about his conspiracy theories and you just smile and nod at him and hope he shuts the hell up and starts eating. For whatever reason, he seems to have convinced a small but vocal minority that he has some unique knowledge and vision and, if you listen to the Cultists Of Paul, is infallible. If you didn’t get enough of Paul this time around, don’t worry. He’ll run again in 2016… and 2020… and 2024. Assuming he lives long enough, of course.

Pretty much where I stand on Ron & Rand Paul. I support having one in the House & one in the Senate. Maybe we can put one on the Supreme Court too. But not the Presidency.

Honestly I see most of that as boilerplate filler. The majority of his rant lies elsewhere. If he was really burned about that you’d think most of his rant would be about our “freedoms” and its not.

As you (and others) note it was our presence in the Middle East that moved him. Of course people/regimes like him need an enemy and he’d manufacture one no matter how far he got in his aims.

For all his holier-than-thou protestations about women and what-not as a person he apparently was into porn (or if not his then those closest to him were into it suggesting a bit of a schism between the rhetoric and the practice of their brand of Islam).

Here’s what happened when Paul said the exact same thing in a 2007 primary debate.

I agree with the general consensus here, which is that Ron Paul is correct about the fact that American policy in the Middle East is the primary cause of Al Queda’s decision to attach the United States. At the same time, Ron Paul is completely off his rocker in regards to many other things. The leading example of that would be his often-repeated claim that Mexico is currently planning to invade and destroy the United States through means such as the NAFTA Superhighway and the Amero (a supposed single currency for Mexico, the USA, and Canada.) He not only claims that Mexico desires the NAFTA Superhighway and the Amero; he also claims that he’s seen legislation, in the House of Representatives, concerning these two things. His claims in that regards are the main piece of evidence that the loonies use to prove that the two things exist, even though, needless to say, he can’t tell us the name or number of the legislation in question.

But does he honestly believe that he’s seen the legislation. I can’t say for sure, but when I watch the videos it sure looks like he honestly believes it.

I have to say I find the premise of this thread, and its cognitive dissonance subtext, all the more amusing that it’s a **Qin **vintage.

  • Is Ron Paul nuts ?! Look at what he’s saying !
  • Um… yes ?
  • But they’re liberal things to say !
  • Um… OK, if you say so. So what ?
  • But Paul is right wing ! Why would he ever say librul things ?! Has he lost his *mind *?

No booboo, Ron Paul hasn’t lost his mind, it’s just that people come in more than 2 stark shades. Quite a lot more akshully. It’s ok, it really is. You can ease into that concept in your own time.