ROTJ: Emperor wins, so?

[Bryan_Ekers]

*Originally posted by DPWhite *
Vader has been playing a double game for a long time. In spite of his fearsome reputation, the crimes we have seen him commit have not been horrendus.

You’re right; he’s a great guy.

He chokes me up.

[Bryan_Ekers]

Damn, I should have said “I get all choked up when I’m around him.”

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by DPWhite *
**
Vader has been playing a double game for a long time. In spite of his fearsome reputation, the crimes we have seen him commit have not been horrendus. He does not destroy Alderaan. He does not kill Leia. He does not kill Luke, particularly in ESB.
**

Well, I dunno…lets take a look at what he does do in the course of the three movies. We know he

1. Helps the emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi
2. Allows troops under his command to massacre a Jawa Sandcruiser and the Lars’s
3. Tortures Leia
4. Watches the destruction of Alderaan, making no complaints, even if he doesn’t order it himself
5. Strangles a bunch of Imperial officers who disappoint him or argue with him
6. Negotiates a treaty guaranteeing the safety of Bespin, then, when Bespin lives up to its part of the treaty (delivering Han to the Empire), breaks the treaty and has his troops sieze the planet.

I’d say those things are pretty horendous.

Vader is evil in a different way than Tarkin is. Grand Moff Tarkin is a sadist. He likes causing pain and making people afraid of him. He enjoyed the destruction of Alderaan.

Vader, on the other hand, (you get the impression), doesn’t particularly like cruelty, even though he’ll use it. The evil in Vader comes from his utter indifference to other people except so far as they benefit him.

[Bad_Hat]

I have heard rumblings about the original plot for ROTJ from time to time. the story that lucas had originally planned before he decided to kiddiefy the trilogy, and one of the more persistent rumours (along with the “endor was originally going to be the wookie homeworld and not the land of teddybears”) was that"

Luke returns to Degobah and confronts Ben and Yoda about Vader, they tell him the truth, he goes off, feeling betrayed and either joins or is tricked in to joining Vader in killing the emperor, whereupon Yoda’s prophesey in ESB (“no, there is another”) actually makes some sense is realized when leia goes to the Death Star and confronts Luke and Vader in a show down that was to work the same was is does not except with Vader as the emperor, Luke as vader, and leia as luke.

Whether its true or not, it seems to me that it would have been a much cooler movie, and it would have saved leia from being completely wasted as a character in ROTJ.

If you watch ESB with this in mind it actually seems not only feasible, but inevitable: Luke is too impulsive to be a great jedi, he looses his hand and has it relpaced with a mechanical one. and really, why bother making Luke and Leia related and not have her get to kick any Force Empowered Ass.

the rumour has always contended that Lucas,or the powers that be,felt that it would be too dark to make the hero into a bad guy,so the cheesier “redemtion of vader” plot was invented to give the story some arc, though a much weaker one that it would have otherwise had if Luke had suffered from classical hamarita and gotten bitten in the ass by it, only to be saved by his sister, instead of being a whiny prick and perpetually getting by by the skin fo his teeth.

CJ

[Bryan_Ekers]

If Luke and Leia inherited their abilities from Anakin, why are the trailers for Attack of the Clones playing up the “doomed romance” angle? Shouldn’t the Jedi Council be encouraging the Jedis to have lots of kids, if Force sensitivity can be genetic?

Oh, wait, the Force is guiding me to the answer to the “doomed romance” question… the future image is hazy and unclear… I must focus… yes! I can see the answer:

“chick flick”

[Achernar]

If you have a preconceived notion that really evil people can not be redeemed, then of course the ending of Return of the Jedi is not going to work for you. But I think Vader’s redemption was done rather well. At the end, Vader has a choice. He can go along with the Emperor’s plan to kill Luke, then help trounce the Rebellion, and continue to rule as second-in-command of the galaxy (first-in-command, when the Emperor finally kicks the bucket). Or, he can lay down his life to rescue Luke, not only throwing away his future, but doing a complete reversal on his life for the past thirty years. This is not something that most people could do without a second thought. Vader is, as far as we know, the only person ever to defeat the Dark Side once it had taken hold of him.

[Guinastasia]

*Originally posted by KillerHamster *
**I think the Emporer’s death was more important than it seemed on the surface.

Did you notice that the Rebels only started succeeding AFTER the emporer was killed by Vader? Before he died, nothing was going their way. A friend of mine who’s a Star Wars nut pointed that out to me last time we watched it.

Supposedly, the Emporer’s power with the Force was having an overall effect on the situation. When he died, his influence over what was happening (the disabling of the sheild, attack on the Death Star) disappeared, and the Rebels started succeeding at that point.

**

BINGO!

In fact, have you read Timothy Zahn’s Heir to the Empire trilogy? That was the point made by Grand Admiral Thrawn as to WHY Endor ended in a victory for the Rebellion.

[Odesio]

*Originally posted by KillerHamster *
**
Supposedly, the Emporer’s power with the Force was having an overall effect on the situation. When he died, his influence over what was happening (the disabling of the sheild, attack on the Death Star) disappeared, and the Rebels started succeeding at that point.
**

The trouble is most of this information comes from secondary sources. Books, role playing games, comic books, and computer games. If I look at the Star Wars movies then I just want to look at the movies themselves.

Marc

[Dewey_Cheatem_Undhow]

*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers *
** One of the better examples of a story arc that worked was the first four seasons of Babylon V, but even there they tried to get some more dough out of the franchise and hung on for a weak fifth year. **

Actually, B5 was supposed to be a 5-year arc. They were threatened with cancellation after season 4, so JMS tried to wrap up as many arcs as he could in season 4. Thus, when the news came that they would have that final season, there weren’t as many story arcs as were originally planned.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance *
Dammit, RJ!
Warn us before you do that!

OOPS! :eek:

A thousand mea culpas. For some reason I thought that tidbit was common knowledge, right up there with Anakin becoming Darth Vad–

I did it again, didn’t I?

[toadspittle]

*Originally posted by rjung *
**
OOPS! :eek:

A thousand mea culpas. For some reason I thought that tidbit was common knowledge, right up there with Anakin becoming Darth Vad–

I did it again, didn’t I? **

I’d like to stand up for rjung here–
ep. 2 spoilers for casual star wars fans*

In the new trailer for Ep. II, Obi Wan says, “…they’re using a bounty hunter named Jango Fett to create a clone army…” Which clearly puts rjung’s statement beyond the realm of spoilers. (It was on FOX TV, for goodness’ sake.) Unless you’re so hardcore that you’ve decided not to even watch television for the next two months to avoid spoiling the surprise.

[smiling_bandit]

Also, it may be important as much as for what comes after as during - One might say that as Anakin turned toward evil and callousness, it was merely a dark mirror of the ivory tower Jedi, obsessed with their own importance.

(Joke about Yoda: He Peers intently at a newborn “Too old! Too old to begin the training!”)

Still, Anakin does not surrender in the end. Precisely because he sacrifices everything he gained in his long Dark time, he can rest peacefully. Likewise, Luke, having faced the Dark Side, (and unlike Obi-Wan refuses to fight it by violence) can have a new beginning. And he does create a new Jedi order, one that is radically different in many ways from the previous incarnation (note his wife MJ).

[Legomancer]

Keep in mind that it’s Obi-Wan who tells us that Vader helped the emperor hunt down and betray all the other Jedi.

Given what we know about Obi-Wan (he lies a lot), I wouldn’t be surprised to find that it was HIM who betrays all the Jedi.

[elf6c]

*Originally posted by toadspittle *
**Well, clearly some people got out (like Luke…). So it’s not unreasonable that Vader and the Emperor could have gotten off the Death Star.

… and fled in the ensuing chaos? Why not. I’d say that the rebels had scored big hits with the Executor and the Death Star, but you’ve still got a few dozen Star Destroyers and their fighters sitting there, pounding away at the fleet. We never see how that battle ends–my guess is that the surviving Imperials bolted when they saw the Death Star explode.

But, if the Emperor survived, would he be able to call up the commanders from his shuttle and say, “OK. They got the Death Star, but I’m still alive–put an end to this nonsense. NOW.” ? Possibly.

So (a) they still could have escaped from the Death Star (b) the Empire was still strong–tons of forces at their disposal throughout the galaxy, and even lots still intact at the scene of the battle. My guess is, if the Emperor did NOT die in that battle, it would have been the end of the rebels. The fight was too costly for them, and they were still fairly outgunned. **

I disagree strongly. Watching the movie it seems clear that the Rebels are doing quite well and would have likely won- that’s what made the trap so effective. If its an even fight the Rebels may just run away again or ignore it altogether- remember they had to lure the rebels to them. It has too be tempting (1/2 built death star and a too small protective fleet) to work. And it would have too- if not for that damn Lando Calrissian (sp?) and his walrus faced friend.

Also if Luke could escape dragging dear old dad, Vader and the Emperor probably could have made it too.

Another factor is that the Empire is like the old Soviet style of top-down battle control. With the loss of the entire leadership structure and probably bad odds to start the Imperials probably were handed a healthy case of whoop ass.

Of course I sound like Clerks 2 now.

-me

[toadspittle]

*Originally posted by elf6c *
Watching the movie it seems clear that the Rebels are doing quite well and would have likely won- that’s what made the trap so effective. If its an even fight the Rebels may just run away again or ignore it altogether- remember they had to lure the rebels to them. It has too be tempting (1/2 built death star and a too small protective fleet) to work

Yes, but the fleet really wasn’t too small. To the rebel spies, the death star appeared relatively undefended–but remember, Ackbar almost messed himself when he saw all those star destroyers come around from the far side of Endor. The rebels would have run away at that point, had Lando not insisted they wait for Han to get the shield down.

The fact is, we never see how the rebel spacecraft finish the battle. Do they mop up every last imperial ship? Unlikely, since the rebels were outnumbered and getting hit hard the whole time through. It’s more likely that the rest of the Imperials simply flee into hyperspace, since the death star–and their emperor–just 'sploded. The rebel fleet was fighting a losing battle the whole time, doing everything they could just to stay alive until the shield went down and their fighters could get inside the Death Star. (Remember Ackbar’s comment when Lando orders the fleet to engage the Star Destroyers at point-blank range–“At that close range, we won’t last long against those Star Destroyers.” Ackbar knew he was in a fight he couldn’t win.)

[Max_Carnage]

*Originally posted by Jonathan Chance *
**

Dammit, RJ!

Warn us before you do that! **

Not sure if you were being facetious (sp?) there or not, Jon, but he really didn’t tell us anything that wasn’t in the latest trailer.

[msmith537]

1. Luke and Leia don’t know they are brother and sister in the first movie. It is entirely possible they could have some kind of “Say it Isn’t So” (the movie where Chris Klein thinks Heather Grahms is is sister) thing going on.

2. The Rebels obviously won the Battle of Endor in space (and apparently on the ground as well) since they had time to trhow a big party with X-Wing launched fireworks.

3. Large peices of the Death Star and broken mile long spacecraft falling to Endor were apparently not a concern.
   A couple of points:

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
Well, I dunno…lets take a look at what he does do in the course of the three movies. We know he

1. Helps the emperor hunt down and kill the Jedi

Well we don’t know enough from just the movies to judge these actions.

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
2. Allows troops under his command to massacre a Jawa Sandcruiser and the Lars’s

Jawa’s are pretty shady. And just because some troops get out of hand, that’s not necessarily Vaders fault. There has to be millions of soldiers in the Imperial Army.

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
3. Tortures Leia

Once again, we don’t know she was tortured, per se. We see a droid with some medical aparatus on it approach her. Could have been just a fancy recording device.

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
4. Watches the destruction of Alderaan, making no complaints, even if he doesn’t order it himself

Oh, by your crazy logic, Harry Truman must be Satan for droping the bomb on Hiroshima. Alderaan was a known supporter of a terrorist activity.

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
5. Strangles a bunch of Imperial officers who disappoint him or argue with him

Hey, the Imperial Navy has some pretty strict discipline. I recall the British Navy used to keel-haul people for insubordination.

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
6. Negotiates a treaty guaranteeing the safety of Bespin, then, when Bespin lives up to its part of the treaty (delivering Han to the Empire), breaks the treaty and has his troops sieze the planet.

Well, after he negotiated a treaty with Bespin, political insurgants attacked the city in an attempt to rescue a know criminal as he was transfered to Tatooine authorities.

*Originally posted by Captain Amazing *
I’d say those things are pretty horendous.
**

And what of your precious rebels?

1. Leads government troops on a high speed chase after commiting several acts of interplanetary espionage.
2. Kills a guy with a lightsaber in a bar fight
3. An ignorant hick traveling with a known smuggler/pirate. a Wookie with anger management issues, a crazy hermit and two gay droids.
4. Breaks into a government facility to rescue a political disident, killing several guards and soldiers in the process.
5. Shoots at a visiting dignitary (Vadar) while he sits down to dinner.
6. DROPS OUT OF JEDI SCHOOL!!! And he was a C student at best anyway. Couldn’t even raise an X-Wing without help.
7. Starts a running gun battle in mining town on Bespin.
8. Attacks and kills a resident of Tatooine and his guards and entourage, and destroys his property. All this while trying to rescue a criminal who is being forced to repay a business debt.
9. Makes out with his sister.
10. Encourages small furry natives to be slaughtered in an Intifada against a mechanized army armed with amored soldiers, walking tanks and laser blasting spacecraft.

And finally…

11. Comes blasting out of hyperspace to attack and destroy a major military installation while its being worked on by 10s if not 100s of thousands of civilian contractors and government employees, blowing it up over a populated planet, disrupting the government of the entire galaxy and thus creating a disaster of such a scale as to make 9/11 look like two girls bickering in the schoolyard.

[elf6c]

11. Comes blasting out of hyperspace to attack and destroy a major military installation while its being worked on by 10s if not 100s of thousands of civilian contractors and government employees

I knew if this went on long enough it would end up like Clerks.

“But I’m not even supposed to be here today!”

-me

[KneadToKnow]

*Originally posted by toadspittle *
It was on FOX TV, for goodness’ sake.

How times have changed. I can remember when that was a valid excuse for why no one would have seen it!

[kingpengvin]

Weird isn’t it?
Rebels are good unless they are against us then they are evil crackpots.

I am an Imperial fan. Their weakness was in their Logistics and training programs.

The Empire had so much man power and material but obviously someone knew someone to get into leadsership roles in those departments.

The Evidence:

Poor Logistics:

STAR WARS
DESIGN (Logistics)

1. Designing a space station with a huge shaft that goes directly to the power core. No bends no rerouting valves just a big empty tunnel to the power core. Ok even if a bunch of looney rebels don’t try and drop a bomb into the core you still have to worry about stray debrisfrom those planets you are pulverising.
2. Seeing as that planet smooshing gun in the front is good enough against big ships why not make your surface cannons able to target small ships?

TRAINING:

1. Pilots who panick too quickly, when someone beside you gets shot while traveling in a tight formation down a tighter trench a pilot must be trained not to suddenly veer right or left. Up may be good!

2. Marksmanship. Train them to shoot while running, train 'em to shoot while standing still, train them to SHOOT moving target, train them to shoot! (Once again Kenobi shows what a liar he is when he declares the blast marks are from stormtroopers because they are so precise, then again maybe he was joking and tehre were holes up and down the crawler denoting the wild firefight and desperate battle between troopers and the Jawas)

3. Humility training in the officers: When faced with the obvious threats created by their own poor planning do they say, “Hey you know what let’s split and return if we win.” No they bluster and saqy stupid things like “Evacuate in our moment of triumph?” Hey Moron the guy giving you the report was trained to anylise enemy attacks, maybe he has a point.
   EMPIRE
   LOGISTICS

4. You want to find the Rebels so you send…
   A Probe that crashes into a planet and starts making large amounts of noise as it tools around taking picture. Then it broadcasts its transmition on a broadband frequency. The damned thing does everything in its power to gather attention to itself like some dork in the back of the class who is smart enough to stop eating paste but too dumb to try and learn and just shut the fuck up!

5. Ships that steer like cows. Your on a collision course your ship can travel faster than light but you steer at about 20 miles per hour.

TRAINING

1. STUPID PILOTS AGAIN! (See Star Wars and substitue trench with trench in the middle of an giant asteroid)

2. FOLLOW THE LEADER: You are in your top of the line Star destroyer chasing a tiny freighter. Your crew of thousands are so intent on catching this ship that they follow your every order even if it means running headlong into another ship full of idiots not paying attention to you. Isn’t one of these guys the one who operates the radar that tells you an enormous ship is heading your way. Thank god he is not the one who lets the captain know a planet is coming up on them really fast.

Return Of the Jedi
LOGISTICS:

1. What Idiot would send hundreds of Speeder bikes to a tree infested planet? Come to think of it why would you have a giant walking tank when the ground is cluttered uneven and once again infested with trees, or did someone get on the ball and clear cut straight lines into the forest in case they got into a battle.

2. Having that big old power core exposed without any form of secondary shielding.

3. No back up shield generator. Nope why would you need that we have one generator with one big core with this back door that LEADS UP TO THE MOST SENSITIVE ERA OF THE CORE…

TRAINING:
They lose to primative teddy bears whose greatest weapon is TWO LOGS TIED ON A ROPE!!
Nice tactics… no wait they won until they all surrendered to one walker! ONE WALKER! No reserves to be dropped in to mop up. Nope just a single squad of cowards! Mind you they probably recognized their weakness when it comes to shooting a target as big as that.

I give up… the Imperials suck rocks!