Why *wasn't* Luke evil? (a disturbance in the Force)

In My Humble Opinion
1

Okay, I’ve scanned a few SW threads and haven’t seen anything on this, but it’s been bugging me for a while. If this has been addressed elsewhere, please let me know.
Here’s my point of confusion:
In RotJ, when Luke is facing the emperor, the Emperor says[sup]*[/sup]:

The closest I’ve seen this addressed, without scouring every single SW thread, of which there are just a bunch, is:

Which I gather is referring to this:

Sure, Luke stands down for a while, he doesn’t want to become evil, like his father, right? But what happens? Vader pushes his button:

He does reach for his saber. He does attempt to strike the Emperor down. Vader stops him. The fight is on.

So, what’s the deal. The Emperor wanted Luke to give in to his hate.

He did. The Emperor wanted Luke to attack an “unarmed” opponent. He did (well, he tried to.) At what point would it have been enough? If Luke was to have struck down the Emperor, why would Vader have stopped him (unless it was his paternal instinct, trying to protect Luke, which I doubt)? If Luke only needed to give in to his hate, well, he did, the Emperor had then won. I say he passed the bar, Luke should be considered evil.

I’ve gotta ask: what’s the Straight Dope here, folks?
*****: all (non-Irishman) quotes from the IMDB.
[sub]You have no idea how much coding was involved in this post![/sub]

2

Here’s my take on it, for whatever it’s worth:

Attacking Palpatine wasn’t enough–Palpatine was just trying to set the father/son fight into motion. He was goading Luke the whole time. Luke’s motives were mixed where the Emperor was concerned–if he took him out, maybe he could find a way to save his friends, maybe with Palpatine’s influence gone he could save his father, or maybe the Empire would fall apart anyway (sort of validating his friends’ sacrifice). Sure, he hated the old fart, and he was angry, but that wasn’t enough. Palpatine wanted him to kill Vader. He had to give in to the rage to the point where he no longer cared that the man was his father, where he no longer wanted to save him. All that “you abandoned me/killed the only family I knew/killed my teacher/tried to kill my friends/tried to kill me” resentment had to come out and take over. It almost did–but he pulled it back. He refused to finish the job. He never quite gave in, so he didn’t become enslaved by the Dark Side.

However:
Even if he wasn’t evil, he was stupid. Consider this–you have in your hand a weapon that will cut through virtually anything like fresh spoo. You are doomed to death or a fate you consider even worse. You want to kill someone a few feet away, but you know perfectly well that his minion will block any attempt to hit him. You turn and look out a window less than two feet away into a hard vacuum. Is there some good reason not to cut a huge freakin’ hole in the window, allowing the vacuum to suck all three of you into space to die?

3

Luke did not have the saber in hand, it was on the arm-rest of the Emperors seat.

Otherwise, intersting point.

4

I realize that he was running from the law, but what he did to Laura was unforgivable. They tried to gloss it over with a “love” story, but those of us who watched from the beginning know revisionist soap history when we see it!

5

You’re looking at the wrong point for the climax. It wasn’t when Luke swung at the Emperor, it was when he DIDN’T swing at Vader. In other words, if he had killed his own father, that would have been it, and he would have been destined to succumb to the Dark Side.

By the way… am I the only one who gets teary-eyed when Vader lunges at the Emperor and tosses him into the Death Star’s reactor core?

6

SPOOFE: You’re absolutely right. Palpatine wants Luke and Vader to fight to the death, as it saves him running a selection interview. If Luke had allowed his anger to swamp his love for his father, and his conviction that Vader still had good in him, then he would have proved himself evil.

You’re not alone in weeping at that scene — I have been known to cry real actual tears at that point. Poor Darth Vader.

7

This just made me think of something…

In the next installment in the story line they’re supposed to address the issue of why some Jedi knights disapear when they die (Yoda, Obi Won, Vader), while others just (Qui Gon)…die. It has been guess at that if they are accepting of death, they disapear and become stronger in the force(plus get to come back in later movies as ghosts). If this is true, might that have been what Palpatine wanted. Maybe he was thinking of it as a win-win situation; either I get killed and I become stronger with the dark side or I get young Skywaker fitted for a black faceplate with matching cape. Hmmmm…

~t

8

First off: Slythe, WTF?
Next: Okay, SPOOFE and Tansu, I can buy that. I guess I just took the Emperors words at face value, that Lukes attempting to strike him down, to give in to the hate he felt for the Emperor, would corrupt him.
PolSage, I’ll be interested to see the developments, that sounds plausible. 'Course, Vader died and stayed tangible, but then, later, after burning on the pyre, became etheral. Explain that one.

9

I read a semi-humorous article once which claimed that Jedi became ghosts only if they died in front of Luke. Obi Wan, Yoda, and Vader all did; the Emperor died 'way down at the bottom of the shaft, so no ghost action for him.

My big problem with the whole turning-to-the-dark-side thing was that it was perfectly okay for Luke to use the Force to destroy the Death Star, which involved the murder of thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds? lots, anyway) of clerks, technicians, and system operators, the vast majority of which were no more evil than Luke’s uncle Owen. On the other hand, using The Force to kill the single most evil person in the entire Empire and avenging the deaths of billions of people was a bad thing to do.

So, using the Force to kill innocent people: good.
Using the Force to avenge innocent people: bad.

WTF?

10

Ethilrist, you’ve been watching Clerks again, haven’t you?

11

umm… no, never seen it. Why?

12

Sorry, wrong Luke.
Thought this was a General Hospital thread. :slight_smile:

13

thinksnow, Luke didn’t move away from the window when he summoned his lightsaber. Once it was in hand, all he had to do was turn right and cut open the window. He was easily within reach of it, and Vader was standing to his left, in no position to stop him.

As for the destruction of the Death Star…it’s a matter of attitude and application. Luke was more interested in protecting his friends and allies than in killing anyone. Desperation pulled the trigger, not hatred. Also, he did not use a Dark application of the Force–“knowledge and defense”, remember? He used the Force to get the knowledge of the precise moment he needed to fire, but he didn’t use it in the attack itself.

Also, let’s not forget that Luke was an idiot (see above). It may genuinely never have occurred to him that he was killing loads of regular joes–after all, all he saw while he was there were guards, soldiers, and Evil Overlords.

14

Apparently, Luke isn’t the only idiot around. I’ll bet he couldn’t consistently remember to close his bolding either, though. :stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry.

15

So are we talking just canon here? Because if we’re not, a few of the novels kick this idea around bit.

One element to consider is that Luke is finally motiviated to action in defense of Leia. So, does that make Vader smart or stupid? Did he mention it in hopes of goading Luke, or would he have been better off keeping that to himself, to use as a backup plan later on?

So here is my take on what is going on:

Emperor taunts Luke, Luke resists: the Force is with Luke.

Vader mentions Leia, Luke freaks: the dark side is creeping up on Luke, but he does have a tiny edge on the dark side, because his motivations are coming from the attempt to defend another person (Leia).

Luke has the opportunity to strike Vader down, but doesn’t: Luke defeats the dark side impulses within him(which I think is balance’s point)

Vader gives Palpatine the ol’ heave-ho: not only has Luke cast off the dark side, but now Vader has turned away from the dark side.

The innocent (relatively) guys on the Death Star is a tough one. But, the Death Star did kill every single person on Alderaan. I think the motiviation is not to blow up the Death Star to avenge them, but rather to stop the Empire from destroying any more planets, which seems to be the plan. So even though there were thousands of staff guys on the Death Star, the lives of millions of people were at risk as long as the Death Star was operational.

16

So it’s not only okay for Vader to kill the emperor instead of having Luke do it, but it counts as a get-out-of-the-Dark-Side-Free card?

17

I think that just the fact that Luke got angry, and tried to strike his father down was besides the point. What mattered was, after Vader’s hand was chopped off, Palpatine started doing his little routine, and vader got pissed, and through him down the shaft. This made Luke realize that his dad wasn’t such a bad guy afterall, and he would be fine with holding him in his arms as he dies. This is why Luke wasn’t evil, at this point. There were times in other novles, like Dark Force Rising, when Luke was actually evil, and yielded a red light saber like his father. So I suppose the question is debateable, but as far as the trilogy goes, Luke was a saint.

18

Good grief, could I use the word “motivation” more in one post, and spell it wrong every time? Why do I not notice these things in preview, but only after I have submitted the post?

And, to add insult to injury, I switched the Luke’s first freak out – when he realized the fleet has been tricked – with the second time he goes for Vader – when Vader mentions Leia. But, I think the point is still there, that Luke is tempted by the dark side, but manages to get it under control in time to turn away.

19

Ethilrist, Vader’s redemption is once again a matter of motivation. Perhaps for the first time in many years, Vader acted selflessly. He almost certainly knew that he would die, but he was willing to do so to save his son and to end Palpatine’s evil. For once, he wasn’t motivated by anger, hate, or bloody-minded pragmatism, and that saved him.

I’ve long felt that people focus on the wrong parts of Star Wars. I don’t think of Luke as the hero. He’s more of a trigger, or a support. The linchpin of it all is Anakin Skywalker–his fall, his redemption, and his final heroic act. The movies aren’t about space stations, battles, and mind tricks; as much as I love those things, I must say that they’re only window-dressing. The movies are about one man’s descent into darkness, and his painful return to the Light.

20

Okay so I guess I would buy that Lukes attacking the Emperor to defend/protect those he loves/cares for would be a “good thing” so he wouldn’t necessarily be evil.

** Ethilrist** the Clerks comment goes to a line/discussion they are having where they question the morality of blowing up the Death Star the second time. The argument goes something like "You think a StormTrooper knows anything about plumbing? They only know white suits and killing. They would have had to get outside contractors, plumbers, electricians, etc."blowing it up killed innocent victims.

Fortunately, a contractor happens to be in the store a the time and straightens them out, telling them that any contractor on that job knew what he was getting into and was doing so at his own risk (after relating a tale of a contractor that got snuffed doing a mob-bosses shingles after a hit was put out on said bosses house.)

** Czarcasm**, funny, I had you pegged as a Y&tR fan…huh. Oh, well.

** delphica**, I’m sticking only to the movies, as I’ve not read any of the books and a potentially broader base of respondents will have seen the movies than read a particular book.

** Ethilrist**, Darth might not have gotten a “get-out-of-the-Dark-Side-Free card,” but I think he might have gone a long way from being eternally damned, as far as that goes. Though, after having just typed that, I don’t think they had a believe system where this would come into play, you know, similar to many of our religions, so I’m not sure what he did, other than turn from the Dark Side at the 11th hour allowing the “light side” of the Force to prevail, FWIW.

** Evnglion**, why wouldn’t vader have known that either he or the Emperor would have to die to convert Luke? That’s my sticking point. If Vader knew the Emperor had to die, he would have let Luke strike him down. If he knew Luke had to kill him (Vader), well, for one, I don’t think he would have happily conceded. For another point, if he had conceded, why wouldn’t he have done the Ben K. thing of just standing there letting Luke slice him in half, then turn into a Dark Side ghost? So, Vader, being relatively intelligent, would have no incentive to bring Luke to the Emperor or, once there, stop Luke from killing said Emperor.

Clarification?
/////////////*
Preview shows me Balances post. Looks good, makes sense. How interesting to think that the whole of Star Wars is about Vader…