Take a look at this interpretation of the issue over at Brunching Shuttlecocks, a humor webzine:
Well, yeah, I could see that, too. BTW, is this the piece you were talking about, Ethilrist?
I’ve always assumed it took more than one single act to get you on the dark side mailing list. I’d assumed that Vader was evil to the core, and that Luke would have had a long way to go before joining him. Maybe the Emperor just wanted him to think all it took was a single act?
It does seem to take much to get back into the light tho, which is consistent with the semi-religious tone of the movie. Vader redeems himself by killing the Emperor. Seems fishy to me on thinking about it, but heck it’s a movie.
!!!!!!
I bet you’re one of those people that thinks the SDMB is just a message board, too!
Heathen.
The movies are definitely about Darth Vader.
(This post ignores all the books. Most of 'em suck anyway. hehe)
Keep in mind that Darth Vader not only destroyed the Emporer (pretty much bringing down the entire Empire with him), he also destroyed the Sith.
In Episode I, it is said that there are always two Sith: a master and an apprentice. The Emporer knows that if Luke kills him, Luke will become Vader’s apprentice and the Sith will continue onward. If Luke kills vader, then Luke becomes the Emporer’s new apprentice. If Vader kills Luke, well, not much changes.
By saving Luke and killing the Emporer (while simultaneously rejecting the Dark Side) Vader takes out the only two Sith in existence, and saves the last Jedi. This is a momentously good thing, and “saves” Anakin.
So where does Luke come in? Well, as was excellently pointed out by Balance, Luke is the trigger or impetus that compels Vader to remember his humanity and turn to the Light Side. Vader seemed more than happy to kill Luke if the Emporer commanded it, until Luke had the chance to kill Vader and chose against it. This is the spark that rekindles Vader’s latent humanity. Therefore, Luke is partly responsible for Vader’s ultimately restoring balance to the force.
Conclusion: I have too much free time.
Well over a million people aboard the first Death Star, actually. And in the novels/comic books, it depicts Luke being haunted by this act for years afterwards.
Yeah. I die, too.
Self-preservation is never stupid. Selfish, maybe. Cowardly, maybe, but not stupid.
Balance - as for cutting through the window thing, they are in outer spce, I think that window may be a little stronger than the average 3-pane bay window in the living room. Besides, he may kill the people in the room, but he would be abandoning all hope of redeeming his father, one of the reasons he turned himself in to begin with. Plus, maybe Luke realizes the Emperor is pretty strong with the Force and may find a way to safety.
Ethilrist - I agree with Balance for the reasons why Vador turned good again. He saved his son from being killed. It was an act of love, not hatred. Just before that doing it, I believe there is a shot of Vador looking back and forth, from Palpitine to Skywalker. I always thought of this as Vador deciding what to do - follow his master, or save his son - and in the end, he acted out of love for his son instead of love for the Dark Side.
The Emperor never had any intention of dying. All he wanted was for Luke to strike at him, thus releasing his anger. Palpatine knew that Vader would block him the way he did. Another good example of this is when Vader is dueling Luke on Cloud City. “Only your hatred can destroy me,” was one of Vader’s many lines trying to goad Luke into using the Dark Side. Do you think Vader wanted Luke to use the Dark Side to kill him? Obviously not, since without someone else there to guide Luke, he may not permanently stay on the Dark Side. And what assurance did Vader have that Luke would seek out the Emperor after he was dead? None, so trying to get Luke to kill him clearly wasn’t his intention.
The Dark side is motivated by power and greed. Neither the Emperor or Vader (in the first two movies, at least) had an altruistic bone in their bodies. This is shown when Vader offers to Luke to join forces with him, kill the Emperor, then rule the galaxy. Vader had no real devotion to the Emperor, he just knew that Palpatine was more powerful than himself…he also knew though that Luke had the power to destroy the Emperor, so he tried to forge an alliance with him for his own benefit (which would obviously come at the Emperor’s expense).
As to the Emperor wanting to continue the Sith line, I think that Palpatine wanted Luke to come under his own apprenticeship, and not Vaders. Why? Because Luke was more powerful than his father. And while Palpatine wasn’t as powerful as Luke either, he would be able to control him, much as he did Vader. If Luke killed Vader, he was the Emperor’s to mold. If Vader killed Luke, then he must not’ve been as powerful as he’d thought. The Emperor clearly wasn’t ready to die and come back as Obi-Wan had, because he would’ve been ready when Vader tossed him down the shaft, too. His willingness to die wouldn’t have changed that quickly.
To continue with the hijack about the actual story of the movies…
I’m not sure if anyone else here has seen the travelling Star Wars museum exhibit (and if you haven’t, you damn well should find it if it ever gets to a museum near you), but according to that, Balance is absolutely correct.
The movies are Darth Vader’s story. The first ones were obviously the story of his redemption. The new set, must then be the story of his fall.
Or something like that. I was with a cute girl both times I went, so I was a little distracted.
Tengu and Crunchy Frog both raise valid points.
Tengu, in pointing out Luke’s “kill 'em all” option, I stipulated that he would have to consider himself doomed to death or worse. In his position, that would have been my analysis; there is no readily discernible reason to hope for the outcome in the script (unless you know you’re in a space opera). At that point, the best you can do (as a dyed-in-the-wool good guy) is try to neutralize the threat to your allies. Better to choose your own exit than to take what the Emperor offered. Better to end Vader’s evil than let it drag him deeper into its mire. If you choose to argue that Luke could foresee the outcome via the Force, it gets stickier–even Yoda had trouble with foresight, despite centuries of experience. Also, consider how three powerful wielders of the Force, all of whom have some degree of prescience, can distort the probabilities. Against that, you have to consider that Luke wouldn’t have to see as far into the future–just a little farther than Vader or Palpatine. Luke didn’t give any indication that he could do so, though.
Crunchy, those lightsabers can cut through blast doors. I doubt that the window material was any tougher than that. (Maybe one of the Star Wars gamers can supply us with tensile strengths of the two materials–they seem to have every other statistic at their fingertips. 
)
Again, I stipulate that the situation must have appeared hopeless to Luke before my complaint is valid. Maybe Palpatine could save himself (he demonstrated his levitative limits in the shaft, but Luke couldn’t know them). Maybe Vader could save himself–he was farthest away, the heaviest, and maybe possessed of the greatest telekinetic control. It would be a desperate gamble, but if it appeared the only way to salvage the situation, why not take it?
Second-guessing a fictional character in the wee hours of the morning. I need a life.
I disagree. My take is that Vader thought that his overthrowing of the Emperor was simply a natural event, one of the rituals of the Sith teachings. Remember in TPM that it’s mentioned that there are only two Sith at a time - “A master, and an apprentice” - if Vader were to take on an apprentice, then his old master would have to be done away with.
It wasn’t that Vader wasn’t devoted to the Emperor, he was simply more eager to be reunited with his son.
Don’t have the “tensile strengths” handy, but I can say that lightsabers can cut through “almost anything”, with the exception of another lightsaber blade, or certain energy fields, perhaps. Some materials are denser, and are more durable underneath a lightsaber blow, but I can’t recall any physical substance that was completely impervious to a lightsaber strike.
Some people think that Vader’s armor was able to withstand a lightsaber strike (the scene in TESB when Luke hits Vader in the shoulder, sparks fly from his shoulder pad and Vader yelps in pain), but the simpler explanation is that Luke merely pulled the blade back before completely sliced off his father’s arm.
Anyway, RE: the possibility of Luke cutting through the windows…
At that point, Luke wasn’t desperate enough. His goal was to save his father… even with the ambushing of the Rebel fleet, there was still the possibility of success. However, even if he WANTED to break the window open, A: the Emperor and Vader were quite adept with their telekinetic abilities, and B: we don’t know what sort of emergency containment systems the Emperor had installed in his personal throne room. We know that they had developed Magnetic Containment fields to hold atmosphere in, and we know that they had field manipulation technology on their hands… it’s conceivable that the Emperor had an emergency containment field set around his throne room atop the Death Star (remember how vulnerable a place it was?). I imagine this would have been a massive power drain, though, which is why it wouldn’t be a common technology use.
This is why I thought ROTJ sucked. Damned fuzzy Ewoks, and personally I thought the whole Emperor/Luke/Vader thing in the throne room on the Death Star was contrived and cartoonish. The intent of the whole movie was to be a big commercial for a bunch of toys and action figures.
Bottom line, whatever the characters’ motivations may or may not have been, it comes down to Luke isn’t evil because George Lucas says he’s not.
Also, I never was quite convinced that Luke and Leia were in any way related, by blood or marriage. It seemed like something George threw in there for the sake of having a surprise to spring on the viewing audience. The next movie better do some fast talking if it’s going to convince me otherwise.
George Lucas needs to read Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s essay on the suspension of disbelief. Even at the age of fifteen, when I first saw ROTJ, I needed a chain hoist to keep my disbelief from falling on my head and caving my skull in.
Gee, Thea, why don’t you tell us how you really think?
Forcing myself to ignore Thea’s post because I don’t care to contemplate Ewoks…La la la…I can’t [sup]hear[/sup] you…
SPOOFE, I agree about Vader’s telekinesis–he and Luke both demonstrated considerable proficiency (Luke’s enhanced jumps are a good example)–but I don’t recall the Emperor ever using it where we could see him. A high level of kinetic ability is not an unreasonable assumption, but I don’t think we saw any proof of it. Did I forget a scene? If he was that proficient, why couldn’t he save himself when Vader through him down the shaft? Was Vader interfering?
Of course, if the Empereror had a containment field in place, Luke loses nothing by cutting open the window. Except, I suppose, revealing just how far he’ll go.
A few short points and an alt-theory…
1)Telekinesis…yes, there’s evidence of TK ability among Jedi, the rocks, R2D2, Threepio as god…but when Luke makes those monstrous jumps I think he’s actually using the force to enhance his jumping ability. He’s not grabbing his underoos and lifting himself. That would be silly. Increased strength, speed and endurance come from a Jedi’s power to augment their physical ability.
2)In TPM, why did OBK and QGJ stick their sabers (ouch!) into the blast door and try to melt it? The sabers went in easily enough. Why not just cut a hole in the damn thing? Would not that have been more effective?
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Use the force, Opal!
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The films are clearly about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker. Heck, we even have a virgin birth now. I could have lived without that!
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The Sith. I think people are making an unjustified assumption that there are only two in the entire universe. I took that bit about ‘there are always two, an apprentice and a master’ to mean that they always travelled in pairs. ie. a Sith master always HAS an apprentice until the apprentice becomes the master by acquiring an apprentice and killing the master. Kinda tough gig there. But that does leave open the possibility of MANY pairs of Sith master/apprentices roaming the galaxy.
And the theory…
Luke did cross over to the dark side. When he took his saber from the Emperor’s chair and struck at him he had committed himself. The Emperor couldn’t be more tickled. But while the dark side is quicker, more seductive, it’s also easy for a dark jedi to cross back. The light side will always be there for a jedi who repents. But the dark side lets one focus on greed, anger, and power to exclusion of all else. If a dark jedi can make the breakthrough he or she can cross back, poorer but wiser, if you get my drift.
So for those moments Luke was, indeed, a dark jedi (though still a young and inexperienced one). But, when he righted himself, was at peace, he crossed back over. Remember, a dark jedi has to be ‘consumed’ by hatred and lust to get a guild card. Luke just sort of had a fling.
And I bet it was bad but oh so good…
Balance…
Nah, it’s never shown in the movies, where the height of his power was his ample clairvoyance (though he failed to understand that there was still some good in Vader) and his ability to generate and manipulate charged particles. The best reference of his telekinetic abilities comes from the comic books Dark Empire and Dark Empire II, if I recall correctly, though these aren’t as official as some sources.
Perhaps he was just too surprised and angry to counteract his inertia? Or maybe he was extremely powerful in some of the more destructive aspects of the Force (“Lookit me, I can zap things!”) but never really bothered to develop a silly little skill like the ability to move stuff around?
::shrug::
Unlike some others ::cough Thea Logica! cough:: I’ve never been too keen on quibbling over minor plot inconsistencies. “Midichlorians”, yes. “Anakin built C-3PO”, yes. “Emperor can’t fly”, no.
Johnathan Chance…
The reason they’re called “blast doors” is because they’re very, very heavy and very, very thick (just under a meter), and are capable of withstanding a very powerful blast. A lightsaber may be capable of cutting through just about anything… but that doesn’t mean it can always do it EASILY.
If you watch the scene, they WERE trying to cut a hole in the door… but the density of the material prevented the “hot knife through butter” effect.
Y’know, I found that whole “There’re only two” thing to be ridiculous, as well. But the TPM sourcebooks confirm that, yes, the Sith have a practice of only allowing two followers to exist.
Apparently, back in the day when the Sith movement was strong (what, 4,000 years prior to Star Wars?), the Sith all began turning against each other and fighting with each other in attempts to garner more power. After the Sith were all decimated, it was decided that only two would exist at once to prevent another bout of infighting to arise.
Also, it seems that the Sith blame the Jedi for their shortcomings, hence Darth Maul’s not-very-intimidating utterance of “At last we will have revenge.”
I would expect the enhancement to be provided by TK (and not just his underoos, either–evenly applied across his whole body). It seems simpler than quickly modifying muscle tissue to perform far beyond its normal capacity. The reflexes are another matter–it’s not really that he’s that quick, it’s just that he starts reacting before the triggering action occurs. Presumably, his reflexes are limited by his prescient range.
Time to quibble. I distinctly recall hearing a short, green somebody say, “If once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will…” Granted, Anakin proved Yoda wrong, but it wasn’t an easy thing. I don’t think Luke ever quite put both feet down on the path.
SPOOFE, I generally discount anything outside of the canon for discussion purposes. I’ve never read the comics (except one with C3PO leading a droid rebellion…), and I’ve read very few of the novels. They’re not up to snuff, IMHO. I have a pet theory that the Dark Side was actually consuming Palpatine, making him less a man and more a simple force of destruction. His perceptions of the Force were deteriorating–he didn’t sense the good stirring in Vader, he didn’t sense Luke (one of the most rawly powerful wielders of the Force alive) on the planet, little things like that. I like to think that all of his powers except the purely destructive ones were failing him. It makes a number of things fit more nicely.
I agree that a Jedi’s attack anticipation is truly a matter of short term precognition. He begins acting before the event he’s defending against actually occurs. That’s the only possible explantion for a jedi’s ability to use a lightsaber to block blaster fire. Some things occur too quickly for neurons and muscle tissue to cope with.
But I still think the force ‘augments’ what’s already there rather than an outside force. Remember, the light side Jedi’s use the force for knowledge etc. I’m not sure how well that would work in terms of TK.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Balance *
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Well, look, that short green guy may have said that…but we already know that, whatever good light Jedi’s may have, they can be moral relativists and lying bastards with the best of them. Say it with me now…
“So what I told you was true…from a certain point of view.”
I always figured Luke’s proper response there was:
disbelieving stare, gape-mouthed
“From a certain point of VIEW?!?!?! You’re lucky you’re immaterial, old man, or you’d be spitting out teeth right now.”
But maybe that’s just me.