Before we get too carried away with the Secretary’s double talk and the equivalency between an apology and an admission of liability, let us consider that the new guy now appointed to run the “detention facilities” in Iraq may well be the same guy that was recommending last September that the prison MP soften up the Iraqi detainees in preparation for MI, CID and God knows who else’s interrogations. We may have just put the fox in charge of the chicken house.
I’m prepared to predict that a handful of NCOs and junior officers will be charged with some criminal offense or another, that a handful of more middle level officers will be quietly reassigned and maybe have a reprimand filed (which is the kiss of death) but that no big brass hat (the people who are responsible for keeping control of the troops who do the dirty work) will ever suffer so much as a private tongue lashing. The guy who is really going to catch it is the guy who let those photos get out – Rule One is if you are going to do something that is going to cause trouble if it gets out, DON’T TAKE PICTURES OF IT.
May I trust that you also do not find phrases such as Jesus Christ on a Pogo Stick the least bit funny either, given the culture of Christians who post at the SDMB, and that you so advise the writers of such things whenever you see samples of their “wit”?
Sampiro’s post attempts to address extremely serious issues, Lib. Please don’t try to hijack or trivialise. If Bush had invaded Texas, imprisoned and mistreated people off the street, and mocked their religion, you might have a point. But that’s not what happened, and it’s not what we’re talking about here.
Given that part of this debacle stems from the Christian beliefs of the CinC that as God’s appointed leader he can do no wrong and that the laws of the US can be abrogated at a whim, maybe you should not be so quick to act the martyr.
If Bush had less religion and more conscience, maybe he would have paid more attention to the reports of the horrors at Abu Ghraib.
Hey, be fair! According to Bush, he didn’t even know about all this until he saw it on TV. How can you expect the Commander in Chief to pay attention to every niggling little detail? Why, I bet all those reports never even got to him. Surely some underling screens out all the mundane, irrelevant stuff before it reaches his clean and tidy desk, don’t you think?
I figured that someone (especially my shadow, Desmo) would finger me as martyr-complexed simply for requesting the same treatment that is applied to others. Ironic that it was you, Gobear. Are your demands for gay rights merely acts of martyrdom?
Personally I see a slight difference between saying “neener-neener” to Fundies of any ilk and mocking a pile of “naked bodies stacked like cordwood” (gee, what historical event has that description been used to describe?), an actual image of real and sentient people utterly humiliated and distressed sexually and physically not by people who grew up surrounded by 360 fanaticism but by troops sent by the twice born (and brain damaged both times) lying leader of the freest nation on Earth to “liberate the people and stop the torture”. Don’t get me wrong- I definitely see the irony- just not the humor.
Of course the fact that the photographs are going to cause people to die probably in Iraq and around the world because of the passions inflamed by these photographs AND that any American reservists or soldiers or civilians who fall into the hands of any terrorist group anywhere in the Middle East are going to pay for those atrocities (regardless of whether they themselves were involved and the odds are overwhelming that they weren’t) at a price I don’t even want to think about makes them just a tad less funny than they might otherwise be. Oh, and then there’s the whole “never particularly thought of object rape and torture as funny” factor, but I guess that makes me a flaming liberal.
I will admit that I know absolutely nothing of the pain and frustration that the oppressed minority known as Christians must go through everyday in their trouble to find acceptance from themselves, their families and their community. I can’t imagine what it’s like to have to say “Mom, Dad… I’m Christian” or what it must take to summon the guts to practice your religion openly, going to a small town or large city and hoping, just hoping, that maybe there will be other Christians there, and that the majority of people aren’t so deluded and brainwashed by centuries of erroneous information or just flat-out stupidity to the point that ration has been replaced in their brain with dogma like the nucleus sucked out of a stem cell, their opinions reinforced by a pandering leader who wants to rewrite the Constitution expressly to invalidate state recognition of Christian marriage. Oh, I just can’t imagine… And when Dopers don’t share the same results, it must be like Jim Caviezel has been crucified again, this time with Joe Pesci as Satan and no back end deal.
Christians are not being persecuted, but some influential Christians are the source of considerable harm to others. At this moment, right-wing Christians are doing immeasurable harm to our country by stirring up Islamic anger that will surely result in even more acts of terror against Americans.
And equating the Christian hegemony in this country with the inferior position of gay people is just nuts. Asking the victim to feel pity for the persecutor is utterly irrational.
“How can you expect the Commander in Chief to pay attention to every niggling little detail?”
A prison, being run in a country that we have invaded and hope to democritize, is found to be largely without any form of leadership, structure, or policies regarding the treamtent of detainees and prisoners. The country just happens to located in an area of the world that is a tinderbox, and is also inhabited by members of a society who put an extreme importance on appearance, propriety, and tradition. The interogration of some prisoners is contracted out to private corporations, over which neither the Congress (who is responsible for approving the use of your tax dollars in the execise) nor the military authorities have oversight.
The abuses at the prison are discovered and a detailed analysis of the situation done by the military. The report is prepared 3 months ago, but is not deemed important enough to make it to the Commander in Chief of the military, who has the duel role as the chief administration officer of the US government.
Those are the niggling details, and the President is responsible for every single solitary one of them. He’s the President. He’s in charge. If it takes place in the government of the United States during his tenure, he gets the credit or the blame.
That has to be a gigantic whoosh because calling me a lefty? BWAhahahahah!
Unfortunately, I value justice more than I do political affiliation. Bush and company have betrayed the values of this nation and they need to be swept from office before they can do more harm.
I said nothing about “Fundies”, a term which is, incidentally, as demeaning and dismissive as any other term that bigots use.
I agree with you. The problem, however, is that I am not a Christian hegemonist, and neither are many Christian Dopers or, for that matter, Christians as a whole.
Fundie, a contraction of Fundamentalists, is on par with “nigger”, “kyke”, “fag”, etc.? Hmm. While I agree that I have negative associations with the term ‘Fundie’, they’re exactly the same that I have with the term ‘Fundamentalist’.
Anybody who compares the anti-Christian levity on a private message board that people are free to visit or not to the sexual and physical abuse on detained Muslims deserves no rebuttal more elaborate or cogent than “Fuck you”.
I’m more than a little concerned about the humiliation of prisioners, not the least because it happened in the first place. Sampiro elucidated many of the salient points. We’re supposedly trying to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis, not to mention others in the Arab world. Hard job right there, especially with a war in the offing. Our purported reason for invasion was to remove a direct threat and, oh, by the way, demonstrate a more humane, civilized system of governance.
I’m not a knee-jerk Bush basher but this was purely awful in statesmanship as well as human terms. Set aside the narrow focus on BushCo’s election credibility; the essential thing is our already shaky credibility with the Arab world. I’m very much afraid this will have lasting, dire consequences for what we will face in the region. It sure undermined the claim of, “We’re here with guns to help you folks!”
To be fair, I’m not sure how much damage could be undone by mere words by anyone at this point. Bush has gone on record as being disgusted by the actions. I don’t want to be this cynical but I hope the matter isn’t “settled” by scapegoating a few low level soldiers. Sad to say, I think the practice is systemic. I heard a radio interview w/ a wife of one of the soldiers in the photos, reading from some of his letters home. In them he expressed great reservations about the degree to which intelligence agencies were dictating the handling of prisoners. (Sorry, no cite; will try to look later when I have more time.) I don’t exonerate them for “just following orders” but the far more troublesome issue will be determing if, who and why such orders are issued in the first place.
Sigh. I’d so hoped not to live through another dirty, divisive war in my lifetime.
I saw the interview in question, and it came off pretty much like you’d think if you read the transcripts aloud, Rummy answering, not what was asked, but with his attempt at spin. pretty much ‘yea, yea, it was bad we didn’t like it, lets move on now’.
which is, of course, the problem. And now, additional info coming out as to how long it took before any investigation was done (note at least Amnesty International has for months been complaining as suggested here ) .
we will reap the effects of this for decades, I fear. I also predict the following:
that the whistle blower will not have continued success in the military.
that there will be exactly one sacrifical lamb (perhaps at a high office) who will resign because of this.
there will be pledges of reform, lots of mention of the concept of a few rotten apples (gee- no one ever answers this - what are the odds that all of the armed forces ‘rotten apples’ end up at the same unit?), and few real changes.
there will be many mentions of essentially ‘but at least we weren’t as bad as Saddam’.
Damn straight. Sorry if I came across as actually defending Bush’s oblivion. I was being sarcastic, didn’t make my disgust with his insulation from stuff like that clear enough. He claims not to have known about allegations as explosive as this until the media broke the story? Either he’s lying or his handlers are idiots.
Let’s just say I believe the old proverb: “A fish rots from the head.”
Oh, and gobear – sorry for the political realignment. I guess a circular firing squad ain’t quite right – more like you were shooting at Lib over Desmostylus’s shoulder, and your aim was a tad off.
wring,I see New Iskander for one is laboring mightily to carry out your point number four.
sampiro, your post number 20 sickens me every time I read it. Not because I disagree with you, but because your analysis seems dead on, to me, and what it bodes for the future is terrifying.
:rolleyes: 