You need to pay attention to what XT posted and the bogus opinion that he and Human Action are defending
I’ll condense things a bit for your convenience, but you should go a couple of posts up and read the entire post.
On 03-31-2014 at 05:53 PM **XT posted a CNN opinion **that falsely claims that Russia ‘STARTED’ the 2008 war with Georgia for domestic reasons:
Excerpts from XT’s CNN’s wrong opinion writer:
"Starting a war to solve a domestic problem is now a Russian tradition. and in the same paragraph, “The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin.” and in the next paragraph the CNN writer included the 2008 war against Georgia as one of the "earlier acts of aggression… "
The writer makes no mention that the EU Commission found that Georgia started it.
So take it up with XT and Human Action and this CNN writer they are so vehemently defending.
As to the proportionality of the Russian response, I addressed that to you earlier about 23 hours ago at 05:34 AM. Perhaps you missed it:
I draw your attention to the statement in the above that it should be ‘admitted’ that it is not easy to decide where the line of Russian proportional response should have been drawn. I defer that line to the Russian people and their leaders. I don’t believe the West gets to unilaterally decide where that line is.
Do you admit it is not easy to decide where that line should be drawn?
Heh there’s no way in hell that’s going to work. So now the invader gets to decide whether his invasion is proportional?
I’ll admit that it’s hard to tell whether an invasion is proportional or not. But the Russian invasion was so clearly disproportionate that this is not an issue. In response to an (unacceptable) attack near the border, the Russians bomb the Georgian capital and carry their attack deep into enemy territoy? Killing dozens - close to 150 according to Georgia - in the process? By no stretch of the imagination is that a proportional response, sorry
Clearly disproportionate to you. The first people to die in the Massive Gerogian Artillery attack on Tskhinvali should have first say in how far the 'punitive response should have gone. You seem to believe Georgia started the five day war, but you don’t put much weight in them being guilty of killing people that were not shooting or threatening Georgia in any way according to the EU report.
If you kill Russian Soldier’s indiscriminately as Georgia did, they should have known it would really piss Russians off.
The first group of dead and wounded is on Georgia. What happened after that is part of what happens when your pip’squeak jack ass president starts a war by killing Russian soldiers.
Well, the EU report that you linked to as your cite disagrees with your opinion that dead Russians soldiers should have the “first say” about the proportionality of an attack. In fact, one might wonder how dead people can have a say about anything*. But that makes about as much sense as any of your other posts on this subject, so I guess it’s not surprising.
*It’s the logical fallacy commonly known as “appeal to emotion”. As you might know, fallacies can’t be used to credibly debate a subject. But maybe you don’t know that.
I did not cite the EU Commission report for that purpose. That was my response to Batutista. I cited the EU report in this context:
{{I draw your attention to the statement in the above that it should be ‘admitted’ that it is not easy to decide where the line of Russian proportional response should have been drawn. I defer that line to the Russian people and their leaders. I don’t believe the West gets to unilaterally decide where that line is.}}
Now if you believe the Russian people and their government have no capability or right or latitude to speak and act in defense and in retribution for their soldiers killed by a power-crazed idiot foreign official that gave the order to shell civilian targets that started the war, then nothing but your raw prejudice is showing for your negative opinion of the people of Russia and their leadership.
On the matter of the EU Commission, it is in fact sponsored by the EU which has a tie to the significance of the path to NATO membership that Georgia and Ukraine were on when Georgia illegally and immorally used the heavy and massive artillery that started the war.
Being sponsored by European members of NATO this commission cannot be said to be fully balanced with experts and analysts that are fair and balanced to the Russian side . It is indeed to the commission’s credit that they admitted that determining where the line drawn with respect the proportionality of the Russian response to the clear-cut case of Georgian deadly aggression.
I see you have chosen to sidestep that point and that reflective and honest admission by the EU commission.
I did not need the EU Commussion to tell me that Georgia started the war on April 7 2008. There was sufficient information available to figure that out. My point is that it was an EU commissions report not Russian that confirmed a fact I already knee was true. Georgia started it and Russia attacked and invade Georgia in response.
Do you believe that Georgia in starting a five day war along with many of its allies that belong to NATO are the ones who should decide where that proportional line should be drawn. Do you believe that although the EU report itself admits that in this case it is diffucult to determine where the line should be drawn?
I believe, well actually I know, that saying dead Russians should have a say about the proportionality of a response is a logical fallacy. I know that the EU concluded that Russia’s actual response was beyond what can reasonably be called proportional. I know that this isn’t a game of “but mom, he hit me first”.
You can dance around that all you like, but you’re still wrong.
Nice snippeteering there Mace. You ignore my full statement that preceded one item you’ve snipped out for your rediculous snark. Besides the fact that you cannot tactically respond to my broader statement on the people of Russia speking and acting in response and for their fallen soldiers, there is an expression that '‘if the dead could speak’ and if they could they’d likely desire to have seen Sakaashvilli strung up by his New York City lawyer balls. Do you dissagree with that assessment?
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
You need to pay attention to what XT posted and the bogus opinion that he and Human Action are defending
I’ll condense things a bit for your convenience, but you should go a couple of posts up and read the entire post.
On 03-31-2014 at 05:53 PM XT posted a CNN opinion that falsely claims that Russia ‘STARTED’ the 2008 war with Georgia for domestic reasons:
Excerpts from XT’s CNN’s wrong opinion writer:
"Starting a war to solve a domestic problem is now a Russian tradition. and in the same paragraph, “The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin.” and in the next paragraph the CNN writer included the 2008 war against Georgia as one of the "earlier acts of aggression… "
The writer makes no mention that the EU Commission found that Georgia started it.
So take it up with XT and Human Action and this CNN writer they are so vehemently defending.
[/QUOTE]
Notice how you have to cut and paste AND add spin to get it to say what you think/thought it said…which was wrong? Here, let’s take a look at the actual paragraph and I’ll attempt to translate the perfectly good English in there to something you might understand:
[QUOTE=CNN Article posted up thread]
Starting a war to solve a domestic problem is now a Russian tradition. The first and second Chechen wars had political motives. Both were intended to distract attention from the consequences of privatization and the second brought Putin to power. The 2008 invasion of Georgia sharply increased the popularity of Dmitri Medvedev, who was filling in as president for Putin.
[/QUOTE]
He’s not (explicitly) saying that Russia started the war in Georgia, he saying that the Russian invasion of Georgia (or whatever loopy word you want to use to replace invasion or invaded), brought an increase in popularity to Dmitri Medvedev by distracting the public from other issues. You could make a case that he’s implicitly grouping Georgia with Chechen I suppose, but that’s not how I read the paragraph, and the fact that you had to cut and paste AND spin things indicates that you realized you misread it as well…otherwise, why do it when you are noted for our great walls of text? He explicitly IS saying that they started the wars in Chechen, however, so if you want to take exception to that you can. I think his overall gist is that Russia is using military force or the threat of military force to achieve it’s regional political goals and to distract the people from real internal issues, and the examples he’s using are Chechen, Georgia and now the Crimea.
The EU also admitted that determining where the line of proportionality is difficult. You refuse to acknowledge that statement. You also refuse to accept that the EU report was conducted and paid for European members of NATO yet you insist that their commussion’s finding is final and the only conclusion that can be considered. You demand that final authority as gospel truth although they themselves admit that it is difficult to determine the limit to which Russia could be seen as justifiably responding to an attack on their troops and killing several of them when they had no defense against the kind of attack that Georgia cowardly launched on the night of October 7. 2008.
Your CNN dude explicitly states the three wars including the 2008 is now a tradition of starting wars for domestic purposes.
Calling it now a tradition locks it in. He is stating that Russia not only ‘started all three’ he is stating they are started for domestic political consumption. That is a lie. The 2008 war was started by Georgia.
Dick Cheney would argue with you on that to this day. Cheney has made torture legal in the past. People were tortured during his reign of error.
And we are talking about war no civil domestic law.
And I made an expression of what those who were wantonly killed by Sakaashvilli’s direct orders to strike the dwellings where they legally resided would desire. It’s not a matter if their desires were legal or not. I guess stringing Mussolini up was illegal too but I doubt the attendees to that execution were never prosecuted for the crime.
They also admitted the truth that it is difficult to determine where the line of proportionality of the Russian response. So where they draw it is not necessarily the truth. It is there opinion about the facts they made ckearl about who started it.
That’s another logical fallacy, unless you are taking his side and using his arguments as yours. Which is it: Logical fallacy, or you siding with Dick Cheney?
Analogy, dude. Analogy. And one that is perfectly apt.
I notice you did not have the desire to post a full quote where I identified what ‘this truth’ meant when I wrote the snipped portion you said you agree with.
On 03-01-2014 at 11:07 PM I wrote, “The Georgian rocket assault and armored advance on Tskhinvali began hours before the Russian tanks came through the Roki tunnel.”
In that context I also wrote and cited a BBC report that defined the finding in the EU report that I refer to as “this truth”.
The EU spent $15 million dollars to find this truth. It is the truth.
{{“The shelling of Tskhinvali (the South Ossetian capital) by the Georgian armed forces during the night of 7 to 8 August 2008 marked the beginning of the large-scale armed conflict in Georgia,” the report says.
XT’s CNN Dude: "***Starting a war ***to solve a domestic problem is now a Russian tradition."
He indicated he meant, the two wars in Chenya, The War in Georgia in 2008 , and now the annexation of Crimea is and indication in that farcical opinion piece that starting wars to solve domestic problems is a Russian tradition.
His Kool-Aid stand ought to be condemned by the health department.
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
On 03-28-2014 at 03:34 PM XT complained that past U.S. transgressions should have NOTHING to do with the Crimea situation and debate:
[/QUOTE]
Um…ok. Perhaps you could explain then how these two things go together. Seemingly Redfury believes I’m waving the American flag around in this thread as well. To me, you guys are living in some sort of alternative universe, but why don’t you explain how me saying this situation has little to nothing to do with the US has anything to do with the CNN opinion article I posted that you dismissed for seeming semantic (and reading comprehension) issues, because I’m not seeing how these two things go together, to be honest.
You are conflating a bunch of things in here and attributing them to a bunch of different people who have addressed different aspects of the debate as you fly from one topic to another. It’s basically a loopy way to strawman.
Let’s see…Did Putin/Medvedev start the war in Georgia? It’s hard to say if they were instrumental or even knowledgeable about the baiting that caused Georgia to lash back. I’ve seen no solid evidence one way or the other on that. Definitely Russia’s response, as noted in your own cite, was disproportional to the attack, which people have been trying to beat into your skull for pages now. The EU did not, of course, find Russia’s actions ‘legally justified’, since they felt it was a disproportionate response. You don’t seem to get that this doesn’t say that Georgia’s initial attacks were justified either…the EU commission basically found fault on both sides.
I love the way you use over the top hyperbole in all these things, however, then whine when someone else uses hyperbole. It’s interesting to me that YOUR use of hyperbole seems to pass without much mention, but when I post an opinion piece that has some hyperbole in it that some folks take nitpicking offense and dismiss it out of hand.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
This post just needs a conga line behind it to be a cheesy Hollywood Musical. Because, as we all know, the US of A was clearly transparent in their Iraq invasion. And YES it’s obviously going to come up again and again. What’s that you you say? Ignore the hypocrisy? Hmmm…not going to happen, my dear CA disaffiliate. Not in a thousand years.
You must be one funny guy, XT – amongst family and close friends.
[/QUOTE]
In the alternative universe you are posting from, are we talking about Iraq in that thread, Red?
Russian minister’s advice to US over Crimea: do yoga and chill outDeputy foreign minister Sergei Ryabkov accuses Americans of ‘childish tantrums’ after they responded to crisis with sanctions
Shaun Walker in Moscow theguardian.com, Thursday 3 April 2014 07.27 EDT
