On 04-06-2014 10:15 AM John Mace speaks for everyone here and decries and decrees that:
That is just another way to avoid debate by the losing side.
Except that the fact is clear, XT’s CNN dude did not accuse Putin and Medvedev of seeing an opportunity and grabbing it. The CNN dude accused them of starting wars including the one in 2008. Russia did not start that five day war. Therefore it is obvious that XT is in error because he has yet to comprehend the very CNN piece that he put up for display. And he obviously does not accept the major finding in the EU commissioned report that Georgia started the war and it was illegal.
Pretty much every one of your arguments can be answered with a simple “two wrongs don’t make a right”. This one is no exception.
There have been large pro-Russian demonstrations in Donetsk, Kharkiv, Lugansk, Odessa. In Donetsk they’ve taken over the regional administration building and are demanding a local parliament session tomorrow at 12 where the issue shall be the decision of a referendum for the region’s inclusion with Russia. If no such referendum is decided on they intent to decide on such a referendum themselves. If this is the mood now, just wait until the IMF mandated gas price hikes and recession following lost economic activity with Russia is going to be really felt. The joke is already something like: dollar is up, gasoline is up, gas is up, electricity is up, factories are closed – tell me again who are being sanctioned. Ukraine is unravelling as we speak, and the EU is doing fuck all about it except for some pretty words.
В Донецке штурмом взяли облгосадминистрацию
Here’s an interesting survey from Ukraine: Public Opinion Survey Residents of Ukraine, March 14 – 26, 2014
I am not asking whether two wrongs ‘make’ a right, so why is your answer that. I’ll repeat - was the ‘method’ last month for separating Crimea’s to Ukraine more or less democratic than the ‘method’ used in 1954 to join Crimea to Ukraine?
The rightness or wrongness of the method is not what I have asked.
I can understand why answering that question is so difficult for many of you, but why change the question or run from it by calling it childish as another avoider has done.
You have asked whether wrong number 1 was more wrong than wrong number 2, which in your opinion would somehow justify wrong number 2.
You have also asked about something that happened 60 years ago, even though you keep saying that we should “move on” from the Crimean referendum and look towards the future.
Whatever happened in Crimea in 1954 (in my eyes it was a very silly decision), this does not justify a foreign invasion and illegal referendum in 2014. One wrong does not justify the other
That is an erroneous interpretation of my question. I am asking whether the method used in 2014 to undo what the method used in 1954 produced and continuing to be in effect six decades later, was more democratic or less democratic than the 1954 method.
You said 2914 was a taste of democracy so I know you do comprehend the question. So was there a taste of democracy in 1954 or was it more of a big gulp of democracy or was there absolutely no taste of democracy in 1954?
You are half way there you know.
They’re not upset about the Russian based gas price hikes? Those are coming in to effect right now. Are pro-Russian protesters ignoring it or blaming it on Europe?
There was absolutely no taste of democracy in 1954. So?
The Crimean referendum had notes of democracy, with an authoritarian after-taste.
Russia is Europe. I don’t know whom they’re blaming. Most likely the Maidan movement. Not entirely unreasonable, but does it matter? When the house is falling down all around you then it is not the time to ask who did what when and why. It’s time to act. That means the EU. Not NATO or the USA or God forbid the IMF. I don’t think the events are scripted, predicted or even necessarily particularly wanted by Russia, but if it continues in the current direction they’ll tie Russian hands just as much as they’ll tie the West.
Here is an interesting fact that no one has mentioned, either here or in the MSM - in 1954, when Crimea was transferred to Ukraine, in the same decision Taganrog and other areas near the Ukraine-Russia border were transferred to Russia. The area of land transferred to Russia was roughly equal to Crimea.
Will Russia give that land back to Ukraine now?
1954 is ancient history and in any case it is irrelevant for the situation in Crimea what happened other places. As they said up-thread: two wrongs don’t make a right. But if Taganrog wants to go to Ukraine they should demand a referendum on that.
And now government buildings in Kharkiv and Lugansk have also been taken by pro-Russian protesters. They’re referring to the rulers in Kiev as the “Illegal Kiev Junta” (funny how everybody is blabbering about legalities), the protests as “Russian Spring”, and want the corrupt Donetsk billionaire governor, Sergey Taruta, recently installed by Kiev to get the fuck out. And a referendum. The police appear to stand back or even side with the protesters and reject whatever goes for central Kiev authority.
What the fuck was Kiev thinking installing a despised oligarch as governor? What did he pay for his two days of fame?
I agree with your point, but wasn’t that in the 1920s, not the 1950s?
That photograph looks like it might have 1000 people in it. Donetsk has a population of 1,000,000 and its metro area 2,000,000. This article describes 100s outside the regional government building. I think if there is any real fervor for a referendum, we would see a bit more enthusiasm from the population.
I think its a lie that the Russian citizens of Ukraine got the referendums going in Crimea and elsewhere. Taking any of these referendum seriously even if you think the results are false is innately a political victory for Putin. All of this talk is foreign influence and meddling.
I heard around 8,000 people in the Donetsk rally. Which is rather much for a population which has otherwise completely lost all trust in the political system. It would be a mistake to gauge the interest of the population – either way – by the size of public display of politics. More telling perhaps is the position of local police forces. Turchinov cancelled his foreign visit – he’s certainly worried. Timoshenko is going boinkers again. Reportedly troops from other parts of Ukraine is being moved to the restive regions because the local forces are not following orders. National Guard and special forces. If true then it will not end well.
Is this the Dagger in The Back theory? Meanwhile Maripul is supposedly in pro-Russian hands now. I’m waiting for Dnepropetrovsk. So far only some minor rallies. It has potential for some really nasty business because some of those cities are very mixed and will not be happy with any outcome.
I have no idea how the whole mess can be put back together again, or actually I’m back to my original opinion of many years, that Ukraine, Belarus, and Russia should be handled as a block by the EU and aggressively integrated in the EU as a group. Not that it’s going to happen.
I was misled by a couple of articles. Yes. 1924. Point remains.
Are there one or more cities/population centers where a clear majority would be predominately pro-Russia? Say well over 80%.
Uh, what? You have talked about how the EU’s cash promises are laughable compared to Russian investment promises and pro-russian demonstrators are going to be even more incensed when IMF gas hikes happen. But Russia is Europe and you haven’t heard any of them talk about gas hikes going on right now. Not sure I trust your info pipeline. Or maybe just how you’re passing it along here.
Half way to what? I’m guessing that in your mind what Russia did in the Crimea was better today than what Russia did in the Crimea in the past because there was a sham of a vote (with Russian troops in the streets, the Ukraine’s military bases and port facilities interdicted, and no status quo option in the vote, etc) as opposed to the arbitrary whim of a Soviet era SG. Right? And what you want people to say is that the arbitrary method that Soviet Russia used to put the Crimea into the Ukraine was worse than what’s recently occurred, and to you that proves…something. Again, right? Feel free to expand on this theme and explain how this justifies what happened and somehow validates Russia’s behavior…two wrongs make a right if done by essentially the same nation, as long as the second wrong was less than the first?