What does any of this have to do with what Russia is doing in the Crimea and in the Ukraine? What does any of this have to do with how the West will respond to what Russia is doing? I’m mystified why you think this is relevant to the discussion…and more-so why this seeming constant attempt to hijack the thread into a discussion about the US is allowed to continue. Could you at least just explain why you think it’s relevant? What connection you see between past US actions, waning US power and general US evilness and what Russia is doing in the Crimea, their troops massed on the borders of the Ukraine, and possible evidence that Russia isn’t done yet?
'Mystified" is good. Means you are thinking. You can figure out the rest, smart as you are.
Is it OK if I laugh at my own jokes?
Best take the red, white & blue blinders first.
You’re going to have to work a lot harder to be funny if you want anyone else to join in. Start by trying to be relevant. Your drive-by didn’t have anything to do with this thread.
The Crimean regime that held the referendum was not an authoritarian regime. They were a separatist movement - a revolt. You might call it a popular uprising.
I think that if you read the Washington Post in the months and weeks before US interventions, you will just about always find such stopping and thinking. More often, there is plenty of stopping and thinking delay. But while the stopping and thinking goes on, great powers make one-step-at-a-time moves it is dreadfully hard to take back.
Well, then the somewhat mystifying quotation I think you might ponder is this famous (albeit the translation is disputed) one from definite non-American Leon Trotsky:
You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you.
If Putin, and the people behind him, want to reverse what they see as the greatest tragedy of their lives – the breakup of the Soviet empire – we are in for a bad time – even though no one thinks the problem of Russia can be solved by said massive infusions. Crimea wasn’t so serious for people outside Ukraine. But if it was just the first of numerous slices Russia wants back, it’s going to be very hard to avoid making threats. Even relative doves will want them, because they will be designed as alternatives to military action. And if the threats don’t work, well, then war starts being interested in all of us.
As I asked you before - how do we know that?
True, I suppose, because establishing an authoritarian regime takes time.
But not all that much; I daresay they’ve got one by now, to whatever extent Russia has got one, and maybe a bit more because of immediate and local circumstances.
On 04-04-2014 at 09:52 AM **Human Action **in response to me wrote:
On 04-04-2014 at 05:53 PM **I wrote **in response to that:
On 04-04-2014 at 07:01 PM **Human Action wrote **in response:
On 04-04-2014 at 11:13 PM Human Action tells me I miss the point and I’ve set up a strawman:
Then on 04-05-2014 at 03:31 AM I wrote and posted this:
So Human Action tells me that what XT posted from CNN,* “made no accusation that the Russian public would support some alternate-reality invasion of Georgia that occurred under different circumstances.”*
Human Action is in error. That CNN writer stated his *alternate-reality *belief that Russia started the 2008 war to solve a domestic problem. He made no mention to the TRUTH that Russia did not start that war and that it was ‘defensive’ in nature, not a war of aggression started to solve a domestic problem.
And how does Human Action know that it was the invasion (phase II) per the EU Commission report that made Medvedev popular. An attack on a nation’s soldiers promotes nationalistic support for its leaders.
I pointed out that it was the attack by Al Qaeda had made Bush instantly popular. not the follow up invasion of Afghanistan.
Similar would be the case in Russia just like every other nation that has sons and daughters in the military, the people will support their leadership every and any time a nation’s soldiers are attacked and killed.
So it is wholly bogus propaganda expressed on CNN that Russia **STARTED the Five Day War **in Georgia to solve a domestic problem. That is absurd since it has been a few years since the truth came out and it was according to a report the EU commissioned.
I don’t see how the Crimean state government is authoritarian or will become authoritarian because I have little doubt that it has majority Pro-Russia support to begin with.
And I wouldn’t dismiss what the Tartars end up supporting. Putin is pressing every button to appeal to them… not crush or be hostile to them. Ukraine was not that good to them when they had the chance.
I’ve read from Russian News that 8000 Ukrainian troops that were stationed in Crimea have applied for Russian passports. About 4000 freely left for Ukraine. I’m not posting that as a fact as of yet… the only sources are Russian News. But it will be interesting to find out what those numbers are.
That’s a good point, because Russians have never in their history had an authoritarian state. Not earlier and not now. Models of liberal democracy, them.
You seem to forget that most of us are not fooled by Russian propaganda.
Well, I might be willing to call it that, except for all the Russian soldiers and such. See, popular uprisings that have a strong, outside power blockading the ports and military bases of the country that the purported ‘popular uprising’ and have troops in the streets during important (and illegal) votes (that have ridiculous landslides like 98% in favor) sort of set off my own bullshit detector. Obviously your own is calibrated a lot differently, though, and to you it’s on par with the ‘thugs’ who tossed out the old Ukrainian president, despite the key difference that there was no outside troops backing them up and it actually was a completely internal affair.
[QUOTE=RedFury]
'Mystified" is good. Means you are thinking. You can figure out the rest, smart as you are.
Is it OK if I laugh at my own jokes?
Best take the red, white & blue blinders first.
[/QUOTE]
So, a completely worthless non-answer is all you gots? Ok then…thanks for playing. Learns me for asking you and expecting…well, anything.
That remains true, and you don’t even attempt to prove otherwise in your rant below.
There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot.
In any event, I read that piece as XT did above, as treating the Georgian war differently from the Chechen wars.
Well, I cited an article that supports that interpretation:
It might not be as persuasive as the nothing you’ve cited to the contrary, but still.
See above.
By the way, you know that Russians weren’t the target of the Georgian attack, right? That it was South Ossetian militia, who’d been shelling and bombing Georgia? Which Russian peacekeepers didn’t stop, instead bringing in their own heavy weapons and overflying Georgian airspace with combat aircraft?
What sort of person thinks ‘reading Russian news’ is being fooled by Russian Propaganda? I’d say its one who can’t find an argument based upon some facts and understanding of things.
Nice bit of snippeteering there you’ve done. I qualified my comment on Ukrainian troops from Crimea voluntarily joining the Russian Army. I’ll let you know when the Western Media confirms or denies that.
Do you have any evidence that Crimea’s government is run by an authoritarian figure or regime?
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
Do you have any evidence that Crimea’s government is run by an authoritarian figure or regime?
[/QUOTE]
I think what they are all getting at is that PUTIN is the ‘authoritarian figure’ and RUSSIA is the ‘government’ being so run…since you seem to have trouble understanding what people write in these threads. You may not (almost certainly don’t) agree with them, but it would help if you at least could understand what they are saying or getting at. Case in point is that CNN opinion piece you keep harping on. You have built pages and pages of bullshit all centered on one single line in that article…and one that you are basically misreading and conflating. Good grief, man, even if you weren’t reading it wrong it was one freaking line in AN OPINION PIECE…only you could turn that into page after page of spin and horseshit.
Move on already to something else…please. Gods, I wish I had never posted the thing since it’s detracted so much from whatever debate is to be had in this ridiculous thread by providing you a free form hijack about Georgia (which isn’t the topic of debate) for literally pages and pages.
On 04-03-2014 at 09:35 PM I wrote:
On 04-03-2014 at 10:58 PM Human Action responded to my 09:35 PM post:
On 04-07-2014 at 11:27 PM I wrote:
On 04-08-2014 at 12:00 AM Human Action reverts to his ‘blame the victim’ mode: There’s more than one way to start a war. There’s firing the first shot, and then there’s doing everything you can to get the other guy to fire the first shot.
But nevertheless, Human Action’s ‘blame the victim’ tactic is in error too:
On 04-02-2014 at 01:31 PM **Batistuta Posted this cite **from the EU Commission Report:
It may be that Human Action has a better investigation to the START of the FIVE DAY WAR than the EU Commission. But we have not seen it.
A big part of the debate on Ukraine/Russia is the reputation the Western media and talking heads successfully apply to demonize Russia. The 2008 war with Georgia is a big part of the false and dishonest demonization of Russia and Putin that needs to be heard and added to the substance of the current debate involving Russia.
It is not true that Russia has a tradition of starting wars to cover up domestic problems.
It is not true that Medvedev became popular because Russia** invaded **Georgia. Medvedev became popular for DEFENDING Russian soldiers who were being killed by a Georgian illegal and massive artillery and tank attack.
Even If one believes that Russia ‘baited’ Georgia to fire the first shot …Then … Georgia fired the first shots that killed Russian soldiers, and the Russian people of course would patriotically respond with approve and support their president who fired back and put a stop to Russian soldiers being killed under a massive illegal unjustified artillery barrage from a cocky wanna-be NATO member heavily armed by Western nations.
To claim the Russians have a **‘TRADITION’ now of STARTING WARS **to cover up domestic problems is a bogus accusation and needs to be put down.
The less Americans know about Ukraine’s location, the more they want U.S. to intervene
- I fully understand the need to intervene from the folks who think Ukraine is in central USA.
That’s hilarious. I’m particularly amazed by the people who located Ukraine somewhere around Hawaii 
All I can tell you is to read the report, instead of telling me what my position is. The escalation that lead up to the attack is clearly documented.
A distinction that only you are making, even though you claim you are not making that distinction.