And? My native tongue is Russian, but I speak American English well enough that you won’t hear an accent. Do you think I have some kind of special issues here in the US that people whose Russian is not native do not?
Name some. I have been asking you for examples of persecution in the last few decades in Ukraine, before these current events, of those who regard Russian as their native tongue (obviously as opposed to those who speak Russian fluently, but for whom it is not native). You have still to give me some. In fact, do you think it is easy to tell one from the other if you met them on the street?
There are huge regions of Russia where at least 10%, and usually a lot more, of people’s native tongue is not Russian. For some of the regions that language is Ukrainian. Can you show ANY region in Russia where some language other than Russian was made “an official language”?
For that matter, it’s worth noting that the official position of the Russian government when the Ukraine was part of Russia was that Ukrainian wasn’t really a language but a “dialect”.
Considering the fact that they are “mutually comprehensible” that’s actually quite logical and defensible.
My college roommate was from Bulgaria and spoke Russian, like all Eastern Europeans who grew up during the Cold War, and when he had no problems understanding what Ukrainians were saying even though he never took any courses in “Ukrainian”. He just thought it was heavily accented Russian.
In fact, I suspect that the average Muscovite would an easier time understanding what people in the Ukraine are saying when they’re speaking than the average American could understand people in a Jamaica bar talking with one another.
Of course we’ve all heard the joke about the difference between a “dialect” and a “language” and now the Russians are using the same line of thinking seems to justify carving up another country.
As was noted early on in this thread… Everyone in Ukraine understand Russian and Ukrainian. Some people prefer to speak Russian and some prefer to speak Ukrainian.
NFBW linked to an article about this not too long ago, but now he wants to pretend as if there is some huge ethno-linguistic divide between “Russian Speakers” and “Ukrainian Speakers”. This is a complete red herring from someone who wants to cheerlead the break-up of Ukraine for who-knows-what reason.
You are in error again. I am not pretending anything. Language in Ukraine has much to do with the people’s national identities.
Does anyone dispute that those Ukrainian nationalists favoring alliance with the EU and severing ties with Russia identify themselves as Ukrainian speakers?
When you tell me what relevance your simple questions have to the core discussion here perhaps I could look up some sociology in Sicily.
My question is about Ukraine. Do you dispute this?
Does anyone dispute that those Ukrainian nationalists favoring alliance with the EU and severing ties with Russia identify themselves as Ukrainian speakers?
Nobody disputes the fact that there are differences between “Russian” and “Ukrainian”. There are differences between Spanish as spoken in Puerto Rico and Spanish as spoken in Tijuana but nobody says the people there speak different “languages” merely that they speak different “dialects”.
“Russian” and “Ukrainian” are “mutually intelligible” which is usually the standard linguists use to decide if something should be considered a separate “dialect” instead of a separate “language”.
What I’m checking for is intellectual consistency.
So, once again do the people of The West Bank and the people of Cairo speak different languages or do they speak different dialects?
Also, do the people of Rome and Sicily speak different languages or do they speak different dialects?
I’m looking at the language differences and separation in Ukraine as it invokes ethnic and nationalistic identity. Ukrainian is the official language and whether it may be intelligible to some or many Ukrainian speacking ears and eyes or not, the Russian language is identified by the majority language being spoken in Ukraine as not official and not conducive to Ukrainuan nationalism and loyalty.
If the difference between the Ukrainian and Russian languages/dialects is as unimportant as some people here are insisting why did the new Ukrainian rulers consider it such a priority to bring in a bill repealing legislation that had recognized Russian as one of the official languages of Ukraine? It was only after protests from the OSCE and neighboring countries that the new law making Ukrainian the sole official language, which had been hurriedly pushed through with no debate and approved by the Maidanist majority, was (no doubt reluctantly) vetoed by the acting President.
Which is neither here nor there.
Apparently there are differences and it is one of the reasons people in the region self-identify as being Ukrainian or Russian.
Yes that is interesting. A lot of the talk earlier in the crisis talked about how all the Eastern industry depended on Russian trade. It seems, not so much. I can see why the separatists might crumble in the face of this. Miners and steelworkers are the backbone of that part of the country.
On this one, it’s generally accepted (e.g. by the people at Ethnologue) that Sicilian (and other Italian languages like Venetian) areseparate languages from the Regional Italian dialects of those same places. So it depends if the Sicilian in question is speaking Sicilian, or Sicilian-Italian (which I imagine most Sicilians code-switch between easily).
Ukrainian is not a dialect of Russian, it’s ridiculous to even suggest it. They’re only partially mutually-intelligible - so’s Dutch and German, and no-one argues those are the same language. Hell, Ukrainian shares more vocab with Polish than it does with Russian.
Is Mr Soros happy with his investment now? Easy pickings of devalued land, coal, steel water electricity etc? I feel sorry for the locals who are suffering from a showdown between very dodgy powerbroking nations. Don’t be fooled by those in control.
Thanks MrDibble. It is hard to explain that comprehension of a similar but separate language does not make the language a one language. A language expert I read said that a Russian from outside Ukraine can learn Ukrainian with total immersion in a few months. But it is learned. Those growing up in Ukraine of course have the ability to speak and comprehend both languages.
There are people in Ukraine that speak Ukrainian that do not speak or comprehend Russian if they have no need to do so. The languages are separate.