Seriously. How does a minority constitutionally obtain independence?
Perhaps Crimeans saw a breakdown in the constitutional process and took advantage of it. The fools in Kiev were throwing Molotov cocktails and being shot in order to pay more for Russian NG. Now the fools in Kiev are losing one of the best things they had going - Russia leasing a base through 2044.
So you say. And hell, maybe some, maybe many, Ukranians living in Crimea agree with you. It is, however, *up to Ukraine to decide how to move forward. *It’s not for Russia to go charging in and creating new countries with force of arms.
[QUOTE=NotfooledbyW]
Seriously. How does a minority constitutionally obtain independence?
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It’s up to Crimeans to decide if they want to be independent and then embark upon a course of action to get it.
Hope this reply isn’t too late in coming. Stupid work getting in the way of posting on the internet.
In post #249, I said “But military intervention by NATO is completely absurd. It doesn’t matter who would win such a war, as frankly Ukraine just isn’t worth the cost of such a war. I know it’s hard to put it so bluntly, but I think the line has to be drawn at NATO’s borders. Prior to that the US can and should exercise its right to impose economic sanctions, along with NATO/EU nations if they agree.”
In post #275, I said “But still, i dont see a larger war coming from this. Ukraine may descend into hell, however.”
When, in post #327, I said “I was not envisioning that we would occupy or even invade Russia, just drive them out of Ukraine and reduce their capacity to wage war,” I was referring to my comment that, in the hypothetical, I believe NATO/EU has the capacity to defeat Russia. I was not indicating that I thought we should/would do so. In fact, all my posts have been clear (IMO) that we should not engage militarily over Ukraine.
Maybe, but if it was military duress then it is not now. It looks like it won’t be too hard for a majority in Crimea to vote to separate themselves from fascists. It looks as if Russian TV has its pretty good version of Fox News. When it comes to agitating without a firm reliance on facts.
According to Immanuel Wallerstein, another fundamental feature of sovereignty is that it is a claim that must be recognised by others if it is to have any meaning: “Sovereignty is more than anything else a matter of legitimacy […that] requires reciprocal recognition. Sovereignty is a hypothetical trade, in which two potentially conflicting sides, respecting de facto realities of power, exchange such recognitions as their least costly strategy.”
You can declare your backyard as an independent sovereign state of NFBW. Even give out citizenships. It will still not be sovereign.
I am gradually accepting that the 1.7 million Russian-Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula have already embarked on a course of action to obtain independence. They could never do it constitutionally. And this independence is what they want and it will begin to end the ruthless and worthless tug of war that has gone on between the Russian Federation and the EU and US an all the rest of the NATO countries.
Well, if 300 protestors show up, I’m sure they represent the other 1,699,700 Russian Speaking Ukrainians living on the Crimean Peninsula.
But just to be clear… are we talking this time about the actual Crimea or some fantasy Crimea that you have conjured up to support some other argument you will claim to be making later on?
The Autonomous Republic of Crimea will be recognized by at least one Super Power to start with… Then more… and then more… What is your point.
If it is probably only Russia to recognize Crimea as you think it will be, it will still be a sovereign state … or they can choose to become part of Russia once their Independence is established.
Anyway if they want to be separated from the bullcrap and nationalist insanity of the rest of Ukraine I doubt that being recognized by Russia alone would be a deterrent to going for full independence.
So all 1.7 million Ukrainians who speak Russian in Crimea want independence now? (This number, by the way, must include many people who consider themselves primarily Ukrainian; there are 2 million people in Crimea and 60% of them claim Russian ethnicity, which is not 1.7 million.) Exactly how many of them have had anything to do with this? Is it even equal to the number of Russian soldiers there now? You have a demonstration with 300 people? Shit, that’s nothing. Last year I helped organize a flash mob to dance to “Harlem Shake” in front of Burlington City Hall. We got more than 300 people for that stunt. They can’t get 301 people for what you claim is a serious independence movement?
I’m curious as to what your position on Crimean independence was before this entire fiasco began and you decided Vladimir Putin was just the coolest.
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… or they can choose to become part of Russia once their Independence is established.
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What a laugh. They will be offered no choice. At best Crimea will be a joke puppet state, like East Germany, which won’t even deserve the bother of sending an ambassador, since it’ll be run out of the Kremlin. That’s the absolute max they can hope for.
There is no huge push here for Crimean independence. Russia’s invading and the common man is smart enough to pray the place doesn’t get burned down and stay out of the way. This is pure imperialism, the Crimean Anschluss.
Today the Autonomous Republic of Crimea is formed as an independent, integral public authority.
You are making another false personal insult that I conjured something up…as if I were ‘lying’… keep it up… Let all see what you do.
Perhaps You’ll believe Brietbart
As I remember the timeline, the Crimean decision was taken before there were reports of a military intervention in Crimea.
On the other hand, the situation in Kiev, with the impeachment process and everything happening in the Rada after Yanukovich was ousted from power, was happening with an angry mob of armed thugs (the Right Sector, Svoboda, wearing shields of strangled and shot policemen, wielding clubs, molotov cocktails, and guns) surrounding the Rada. Many MP’s were not there, and all the subsequent voting was carried out under heavy duress and under threat of violence. Now that was quite akin to a kangaroo court, while I don’t see any similar duress happening at the time in Crimea.