Problem is, on the far right in the USA, there is now a lot of sympathy and admiration for Putin.
As Dave Barry would say, “I AM NOT MAKING THIS UP!” The paleo-conservatives like Pat Buchanan and his gang at the American Conservative are increasingly Russophiles.
As for me… I loathe Putin and sympathize with the Ukrainians, but the practical realioty is this: there is almost nothing we can really do to help them, and it would be extremely dangerous for us to try.
And the WORST thing we could do for the Ukrainians would be to give them false hope of American assistance.
So, we’d have to let the Ukrainians know, “We wish you well, but you’re on your own.” They’d then have to decide whether to fight or to cut the best deal they can with Putin.
Absolutely. But these guys have zero legitimacy among the rather liberal-leaning group I am thinking about - they are generally considered ‘nuts’.
In contrast, the human rights/peace activist types have a rather lot of legitimacy.
The message I am hearing from people is, basically, “surprise”. It isn’t a surprise when Pat Buchanan takes a stance that is bizzare. It is a surprise when apparently ‘liberal’ peaceniks tak a truly bizzare stance.
That ‘surprise’ is rapidly turning into ‘dismay’, ‘disillusion’ and ‘anger’.
As a self described liberal and someone who has first hand experienced with ethnic Ukrainian antisemitism, I must admit that I found myself in a position of tacitly excusing Putin’s actions. But your arguments have given me pause. I’m reconsidering my position as having rushed to judgement of Ukrainian’s motives in this conflict.
So, if Russian antisemitism is just as bad as Ukrainian antisemitism (and trust me, there really isn’t much to distinguish one from the other, not in flavor and not in intensity) why mention it as something that helps you find yourself in a “position of tacitly excusing Putin’s actions”? As in:
“As a self described liberal and someone who has first hand experienced with ethnic Ukrainian antisemitism, I must admit that I found myself in a position of tacitly excusing Putin’s actions.”
[QUOTE=astorian]
And the WORST thing we could do for the Ukrainians would be to give them false hope of American assistance.
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See, and I feel just the opposite…the worst thing we (and the Europeans) can do is nothing, to basically let this slide with a shrug and a good luck.
And where do we draw the line? Part of the Ukrainians giving up their nuclear weapons was that we’d support them from aggression. Now you say we should just pat them on the back and wish them luck? Where will that end?
No, the Crimea is probably a done deal at this point. We should respond with support for the rest of the Ukraine, especially on expediting bringing them into the EU with closer ties to Western Europe (‘we’ being the freaking western Europeans, who are most affected by all of this). Trade and prosperity would go a long way towards undercutting what Russia is trying to do atm. And we should definitely financially and politically punish Russia for this act. We don’t need to go to a shooting war to make our displeasure felt by Russia and Putin over all of this.
Of course, that’s going to mean that the Europeans will have to grow a spine AND will take a hit in the short term economically (especially wrt energy). The US is going to have to get past this ‘well, we are evil so we don’t really have a leg to stand on when someone else does evil’ meme as well, and support the Europeans in this…and get them to do what’s clearly in their best interest, which is to nip this in the bud so Russia (or someone else) doesn’t keep pushing things to see where the limits are. Because frankly, that’s what’s going to happen if we take your advice and tell the Ukrainians are on their own and good luck keeping Russia from slicing off another piece, and another, and another until they swallow it all.
I am one who does not make either arguments to justify what the Russians are doing in Crimea. That is because there is no need to justify what Russians are doing in Crimea.
They are there - what can be done about it and what is the objective in ramping down the current reality since all sides are wrong including western meddling in the whole matter for decades. If a referendum validates that this was an invasion by invitation then Putin is entrenched with enough moral stature because the troop presence is not marred by bloodshed or destruction the normally accompanies invasions.
But to mentionin this non-violent incursion into Crimea where 25,000 armed Russian troops have some license to be there in the same breath as the invasion of Iraq in order to demand war protest that the Iraq invasion deserved is absurd.
International Law was at its finest when that lawful process was disrupted to clear the way for invasion and death. That invasion killed tens of thousands of human beings and ruined millions of lives and their property and there was no justification for it.
I disagree that there is zero chance of that. They are in shock right now, and they have to play to their own public perceptions and world view, but they have got to see where this will go if they just cave on this and do nothing. And it looks to me as if the US is backing into seeing the same thing and starting to get over the shock and think about what we could do to counter all of this. The obvious (to me) move on our part is what we are doing wrt offers of fiscal aide to the Ukraine. Next step would be EU membership or at least affiliation along with military treaties, perhaps some sort of NATO affiliation. Make the Ukraine prosperous and free and that will go a long way to demonstrating the difference between what Russia has to offer and what Western Europe has to offer.
Yeah, we’ll just make the Ukraine prosperous. Heck, why stop there? Let’s make every country prosperous. Why not?
There’s is no frigging way Ukraine is getting into the EU and no way they are getting into NATO and “spine” has nothing to do with it. It has to do with not chaining yourself to a falling anchor just so you can build some buffer zone around Russia.
Spine has everything to do with it, and it’s got nothing to do with creating a buffer zone around Russia, but instead it has to do with halting what’s pretty obviously the first move in a Russian land grab. I mean, seriously…are you not keeping up with current events?
As to letting them into the EU, well, that’s up to you European types…you let in other former Eastern Bloc nations that were as much or more of a basket case as the Ukraine current is. And the Ukraine has a lot of potential natural resources. As to NATO, I’m not seeing why it’s out of the question…again, former Eastern Bloc nations have been let in, and there are nations in NATO that are more of a basket case than the Ukraine is.
Tough shit. The land grab is over, with zero bloodshed and I doubt many people are going to be worse off. Maybe the Russians were egging on fractioning in the Ukraine, but the Ukrainians fell for it. The mob led “impeachment” gave the Russians the excuse they needed and the Russians were ready to take advantage.
Yeah, and those were stupid moves. No need to repeat it. This game is over. If the EU is willing to take the hit in a sanction battle with Russia to try and undo it, well good luck to them.
[QUOTE=CarnalK]
Tough shit. The land grab is over, with zero bloodshed and I doubt many people are going to be worse off. Maybe the Russians were egging on fractioning in the Ukraine, but the Ukrainians fell for it. The mob led “impeachment” gave the Russians the excuse they needed and the Russians were ready to take advantage.
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Good grief. Seriously? This is all over now? Russia got the Crimea and that’s it…game over? You think Putin did all this, took all these risks so he could get the Crimea and call it a day??
Unbelievable. Gods, I hope that the rest of the Europeans, especially your leadership isn’t this short sighted and narrow minded…and afraid.
Yes. By only taking Crimea he got his permanent Black Sea base and a bunch of territory that isn’t going to go jihad on him. Taking the rest of the Ukraine is probably more trouble than it’s worth and couldn’t possibly be taken so calmly.
And seriously, forget the coward calls. This is about what will work and the Ukraine in the EU will not work. Sanctions might but it’s a matter of what it’s worth to them.
Oh, and btw, saying someone is afraid is different than calling them (or even thinking of them) as a coward. The two aren’t the same thing. I never said anything about being a coward (either you personally or Europeans in general), nor do I believe that…that’s YOUR assertion of what my position is.
