I suppose the fact that Russia has invaded Ukraine beyond the borders of Crimea now hasn’t had any effect on the opinions of Notfooled and Redfury and their fellow travelers.
Because Ukraine did not ask Crimeans if they wanted the president they voted for thrown out of office in the violent way it was done.
So what?
To be candid it is hard to take these positions seriously as a former Cold Warrior. I remember this discussion for most of my life in the military, people with beefs against the United States (domestic leftists primarily, but there were other kinds) were always Soviet apologists. We did bad shit in Cambodia and Laos, played around in Central America so that means not only do we have no right to complain about Afghanistan but also that Afghanistan was no different than what we had done in the past (if you actually read up on it, it was materially different than even our Vietnam and factually more brutal and horrifying in terms of how the Soviets acted versus how we acted.) I own up to American military excesses, it’s part of our history and should warrant reflection and condemnation where appropriate. But that doesn’t mean the United States is the equivalent morally to the Soviet Union, nor does it make it okay for other countries to do bad things.
Since I know the type of people that were Soviet apologists during the Cold War I have little reason to suspect someone who is a Putin apologist to be any more capable of logical analysis or reasonable thought on the matter.
Case in point: Ukraine did something bad so that justifies Putin doing something bad…right, that makes sense.
They’ve withdrawn from the small village after negotiating with Ukraine soldiers. They remain at the Gas Line for some reason. Perhaps it feeds gas to Crimea. We shall see what that is about.
Cite? I mean, when you put armed troops on the street before a referendum, and don’t allow options on the ballot that disagrees with the answer you want, its pretty clear that you don’t expect the populations wishes to align with yours.
When one nation has sent in troops to take over a coutry we are rather far beyond a “suspect” illegality. Your argument seems to rest on the idea that there are no limits to the rights of brute power. A rather unfortunate stance for a nation with long-term strategic weaknesses such as Russia.
Yeah, see…when you run a referendum with armed troops in the streets, and no option on the ballot for the status quo, that doesn’t look like the political and juridical legitimacy rests with the people. It looks like using intimidation and cheating to fix a referendum to rubberstamp a military takeover.
If the point was to determine where the will of the Crimean people was, a referendum without soldiers and with actual options on the ballot could have been arranged. This is part of why this looks so insane. Putin could have had Crimea honestly. It wouldn’t have taken much.
This is why Russia has NATO on its borders. Its basically running its relations with its neighbours with such brutalism that they all pull NATO up as close as they can. NATO never encircled Russia. Russia simply made it clear to its neighbours that the choice was NATO membership or brutal subjugation, like in the Warzaw Pact days.
Crimea exit poll: Around 93% back Russia union
Who cares? All is well that ends well. Crimea is now Russian. Deal with it. Not a thing you can do about but Crimea a river.
Yeah, who cares that the democratic process was subverted by a sham election? The sad part is that this will not “end well” for Crimea. The west will not accept the results as legitimate, and while they are not going to go to war over it, you can forget about any foreign investment money for Crimean development for a long time. And expect there to be really tough sanctions against Russia, to the point that they will really hurt the Russian economy.
The thing is, it may be that a majority of Crimeans do want to join Russia. (Though I seriously doubt it is 93%.) If they had the opportunity to have a real democratic status referendum that wasn’t at the end of a Russian gun, there is a real chance that the results would have been accepted by the west, or at the very least the west would not be presenting such a united front.
I am thinking Russias problems now go well beyond that. It had previously been accepte that the use of military forces between European countries for base landgrabs were no longer viable. Too expensive. Now that assumption is being called into question. This is abig long-term problem for Russia, which is relying on flash-in-the-pan military adequacy as its foreign policy instrument.
Russias abused exes are now quite honestly terrified, and make up a significant voting block in the EU. Whose total military budgets, population and economies are so far beyond Russias that it is not even funny.
Russia is relying on a temporary advantage in military personel and equipment, which is fundamentally based on the EU assuming thats not an importan area to spend money on, and a temporary economic upswing based on a one-note economy and the EU as its best customer.
Strategically, this is not a good developemnt for Russia.
And what is its tactical gains? Raping a land area of no economic advantage, that they in any case could have had with a bit of sweet talk? Not good.
Have they?
OK. By “economic warfare,” did you mean the gas disputes from 2005 and on, or other stuff as well?
This one does not say that “Jewish leaders in Kiev have written to Putin publicly stating there is essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine.”
Same here.
So, again, do you have any cite backing up your claim that “Jewish leaders in Kiev have written to Putin publicly stating there is essentially no fascist/Nazi presence in Ukraine,” or would you like to retract that?
Is there any reason the Chinese would not fill the void?
If Russia wanted NATO to stop expanding, this was not the way to go about getting that to happen.
China is not at all a supporter of this nonsense; their longstanding position is one of strict noninterference in other countries’ domestic affairs of this sort. That keeps them consistent with their own positions around places like Taiwan and Tibet.
Indeed, the sad fact is that the West now has no choice but to slowly destroy Russia, the way we destroyed the Soviet Union. We have to rearm, build up our forces in NATO countries they threaten, and push their economy into the ground. It didn’t have to be this way, but now it is.
Yes they’ve moved 10 k in to take a natural gas distribution facility. But I am sure the facility was also outraged by the Kiev fascist coup.
Ah so Putin went for Soviet-style voting results. Figures.
Crimeans are going to be sorely disappointed with the loving care they’re going to get from Russia. I feel really bad for the Tartars, who are invariably going to be violently suppressed and persecuted right back off their own historic lands. Ukrainians in Crimea will probably have to be suppressed and/or removed as well, since they aren’t going to be happy being shit poor Russians while watching Ukraine’s economy and standard of living go up.
I don’t expect them to support it this, politically, but if there is money to be made, I’m not sure why they would shy away. The question is… is there money to be made?
I can’t see Crimea being a marginally logical investment location as opposed to a hundred other places. Nothing about the Russian takeover makes it any more attractive, really.
You’re right, they didn’t quite say that:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/ukraines-jews-lambaste-putin-in-open-letter/