Gyrate:
Still ignoring the Russian “non-troops” all over Crimea well before the actual troops moved in, I see. Is there something in the Ukrainian constitution that allows for that?
Oh FFS. Go back and read for comprehension. He’s referring to Shooby ’s post that you had just quoted, which sets out quite clearly potential reasons for the Putin administration to have journallsts murdered.
Oh you mean the self admitted (“no one knows what really happened, but it doesn’t take much imagination to guess.”) that Shooby quoted that I reject? Sorry I don’t cite or quote anonymous gissip CT and ‘imagination’ to back my points and arguments.
Perhaps that is yours and Carnalk’s standard but it is not mine.
Gyrate
March 19, 2014, 12:22pm
1562
NotfooledbyW:
Oh you mean the self admitted (“no one knows what really happened, but it doesn’t take much imagination to guess.”) that Shooby quoted that I reject? Sorry I don’t cite or quote anonymous gissip CT and ‘imagination’ to back my points and arguments.
Perhaps that is yours and Carnalk’s standard but it is not mine.
You asked for a reason. We gave you one. Handwave away all you like, but it’s at least as solid and supported an argument as yours.
I’m aware of that, again, the legality of it is entirely incidental to my point.
NotfooledbyW:
Coup d'etat - definition of coup d'etat by The Free Dictionary
The **sudden and decisive action **in Ukraine last February was the threat to the President’s life that resulted in the **‘change of government’ **by ‘illegality’. As I explained what the Parliament decreed was illegal. They can’t re-write the Constitution on the fly as the did an then call it legal.
And if we go back to the French… there is no doubt that there was a ‘stroke concerning the state’ in Kiev last February.
I have to agree with Putin who reiterated his belief that it was a coup d etat. It was an illegal change of government.
It is not difficult at all to see that the illegal change in government caused a popular uprising by the pro-Russian majority in Crimea.
One million voters in Crimea voted for Yanukovich in 2010 to a five year term as President. Yanukovich won the election by 500,000 votes according to Rachel Maddow just a few minutes ago. She was trying to point out a tactical error on the part of Putin for bringing those one million voters into Russia and never again being able to vote for a pro-Russia President. She must of forgot the events of last February. It appears that in Ukraine winning elections don’t mean anything anymore of the elected leader chooses Russian ties over over EU ties. What’s in it for Crimeans to ever vote again in Ukraine. They have been pissed on. Those one million votes were pissed on. I would be nice if Rachel could be objective as a journalist.
Feel free to familiarize yourself with the scholarly definition, discussed here .
Malthus
March 19, 2014, 1:55pm
1564
NotfooledbyW:
The Ukraine’s new government promised to crackdown on anti-Russian right wing extremists in Ukraine. I see they’ve started doing so.
No need for a Russian invasion of anywhere. Would it be ok with you if Putin and Russian tycoons put their money into Ukraine to fund a protest movement against any Ukraine moves to join the EU and try to remove Yatz… or the next president by ‘popular uprising’ as Human Action calls it.
Maybe its time for a pro-Russia trade tent city protest in Kiev since Putin has witnessed how the government responds to the Molotov voting method after all.
Heh, you’ve fulfilled expectations even without a further Russian invasion. Congrats.
Malthus
March 19, 2014, 1:56pm
1565
And so it begins:
Only a couple of days after the vote.
'You guys already know the way to Siberia … ’
XT
March 19, 2014, 2:18pm
1566
But they will be settled on new lands that I’m sure will be just as good, plus given ‘senior’ positions in the new government, with the assurance that ‘Crimean Tatars will be well represented in the government and parliament’, so it’s all good. After all, these Tatars supported the overthrow of the old, rightful president and supported what was happening in Kiev (thus making them obviously disrespectful), plus they have been squatting on lands not rightfully theirs since they were mostly all deported (en masse I believe is the phrase) decades ago and chose to come back and take land from the good people of the Crimea. Now this sad situation (for the good workers and peasants of the Crimea…those with good Soviet…er, I mean Russia…stock) can be regularized ‘for social needs’. What could be fairer than that??
Gyrate
March 19, 2014, 3:10pm
1567
Clearly someone should invade Crimea to protect them.
XT
March 19, 2014, 3:21pm
1568
Well, at least the ‘pro-Russian’ forces aren’t pushing things to the point of conflict. They are merely taking over formerly Ukrainian military bases in the Crimea (thus far ‘only’ a single death of evil Ukrainian military personnel reported). Hard to believe that those damned Ukrainians are now authorizing their people to fire back in an ROE change…what are they trying to do, provoke a military conflict with the peaceful people of Russia?? :eek: From CNN :
Almost 300 armed pro-Russian supporters took over the Ukrainian navy’s headquarters in the Crimean port of Sevastopol on Wednesday, said Marina Kanalyuk, assistant to the commander of Ukraine’s navy fleet.
“They are everywhere here, they surround us, they threaten us,” she said, adding that she was sure that Russian security forces were involved.
Kanalyuk said the 70 or so Ukrainian naval officers at the headquarters had tried to stop the armed men from entering and were negotiating with them. She said that the armed men had replaced Ukrainian flags with Russian ones but that no shots had been fired.
A little later, Vladislav Seleznyov, Defense Ministry spokesman in Crimea, said a group of people had taken Ukrainian navy chief Sergey Gaiduk from the navy headquarters.
Russia’s official ITAR-Tass news agency reported that Gaiduk had been passed to the Sevastopol prosecutor’s office to be questioned about whether he’d passed on orders from Kiev for Ukrainian soldiers to use their weapons.
The incident comes a day after one member of the Ukrainian military was killed, another wounded and more captured when masked gunmen seized their base near the Crimean regional capital, Simferopol.
After that fatality – the first Ukrainian military death since the Crimea crisis erupted about two weeks ago – Ukraine’s Defense Ministry authorized its forces to open fire in self-defense.
On the same day, Russian President Vladimir Putin announced the annexation of Crimea, after voters in the semi-autonomous territory approved a hastily called weekend referendum on separating from Ukraine.
Ukraine has exactly one way to strike back effectively against Russian aggression: shutting down all pipelines from Russia into Ukraine. And then plea for economic assistance from the EU and the US.
Russia is very dependent on exports through Ukraine into the rest of Europe. Shutting them down would immediately disrupt the Russia economy. The cost on Ukraine would be similarly high, but it’s a price they may be willing to pay–they have no other way to exert pressure on Russia. By removing the primary economic lever Russia has against the EU, the EU should be more willing to enforce other sanctions against Russia.
It is a hard choice, but if Ukraine wants to preserve its territory, I see no other way for it to do so.
Pleonast:
Ukraine has exactly one way to strike back effectively against Russian aggression: shutting down all pipelines from Russia into Ukraine. And then plea for economic assistance from the EU and the US.
Russia is very dependent on exports through Ukraine into the rest of Europe. Shutting them down would immediately disrupt the Russia economy. The cost on Ukraine would be similarly high, but it’s a price they may be willing to pay–they have no other way to exert pressure on Russia. By removing the primary economic lever Russia has against the EU, the EU should be more willing to enforce other sanctions against Russia.
It is a hard choice, but if Ukraine wants to preserve its territory, I see no other way for it to do so.
Then again, that might just trigger a full-scale invasion and occupation of the whole country.
Latro
March 19, 2014, 4:16pm
1571
Besides, shutting down the gas would have a more immediate effect on the Urkraine than on Russia.
XT
March 19, 2014, 4:26pm
1572
Just an opinion piece, but here is one guys take on events in the Ukraine that run a bit counter to NFBW’s obviously eagle eyed view.
Ukrainians in Ukraine must live with the tangible threat of physical annihilation. We must live with the virtual threat. Their fears are palpable. The consequences for them of war and violence are real: destruction and death. The consequences for us are virtual: We are witnesses to tragedy and mass killings. We watch, our eyes glued to our computer screens, and we imagine the horror.
Our empathy is not abstract: Our friends, colleagues and relatives are real people. Neither is our feeling of impotence abstract: It gnaws at our insides and reminds us that we, too, are dying, albeit spiritually.
For three months, starting in late November, when the mass pro-democracy demonstrations began in downtown Kiev, and ending on February 21, when Ukraine’s version of Papa Doc Duvalier, Viktor Yanukovych, fled and people power triumphed, we had been witnessing daily regime violence punctuated by a few killings in January and mass killings just before the regime collapsed.
Every morning, turning on my computer, I wondered whether this was the day the criminal Yanukovych regime would crack down, as it continually threatened to do. If all that happened that night was a disappearance or two, a few savage beatings and fire-bombings of cars, we Ukrainian-Americans breathed a sigh of relief. You see, we had actually gotten used to daily terror. We, like the demonstrators in Ukraine, could live with that. After all, they had been living with the violence and predations of the Yanukovych regime since 2010.
What we feared above all was mass violence. And then it happened.
On Tuesday, February 18, about 16 demonstrators and 10 police officers were killed. We were shocked and mourned their deaths, while hoping and expecting the violence to ebb. On Wednesday, February 19, nothing happened and our hopes appeared to be justified. On Thursday, February 20, the regime ordered snipers to shoot randomly at demonstrators. Scores died. And, thanks to the Internet, we saw them being mowed down. The violence had come home. The criminal regime had insinuated itself into our lives.
After Yanukovych fled and a democratic government assumed power, we rejoiced. Finally, we thought, Ukraine would be able to become “normal” – free, democratic, liberal and Western. We were euphoric. The death of the country had been averted.
Many Ukrainians in Ukraine now believe that a Russian invasion of mainland Ukraine is inevitable. If it happens, war will break out and thousands will die.
It’s hard to believe that Putin will stop with Crimea. Putin’s former economic adviser Andrei Illarionov, who resigned in protest after a bloody hostage crisis, believes Russian armies will march on Kiev.
Putin’s ideological mentor, Aleksandr Dugin, insists that Russia’s goals go beyond Ukraine into Europe – a reunification of the Slavic peoples. Meanwhile, Russian troops and tanks are massing on Ukraine’s borders. Terrified realists that we have become, we suspect the worst: that they will soon be attacking a country that dared say no to Putin.
Editor’s note: Alexander J. Motyl is professor of political science at Rutgers University-Newark. He served as associate director of the Harriman Institute at Columbia University from 1992 through 1998. A specialist on Ukraine, Russia and the USSR, he is the author of six academic books and several novels, including “The Jew Who Was Ukrainian,” “My Orchidia,” and “Sweet Snow.” Motyl writes a weekly blog on “Ukraine’s Orange Blues” for World Affairs Journal.
CarnalK
March 19, 2014, 4:44pm
1573
XT, if you are buying this load of shit, you are just as eagle eyed as NFBW.
XT
March 19, 2014, 4:45pm
1574
It’s an opinion piece. As for ridiculous, over the top hyperbole, this is pretty mild compared to some of what’s been shoveled in this thread.
CarnalK
March 19, 2014, 4:49pm
1575
No, it’s not mild compared to anything.
XT
March 19, 2014, 4:57pm
1576
I suppose that’s a matter of mileage and gores being oxed. Personally, I think that some of Red’s or ML’s posts and ‘cites’ have been more over the top than a colorful, if hyperbolic one liner in an opinion piece (which I acknowledged when I posted the link and quotes)…and an opinion piece from an obviously distressed and also obviously biased pro-Ukrainian.
CarnalK
March 19, 2014, 5:08pm
1577
But there’s an upper limit. Comparisons to Hitler or Papa Doc are at the top, so no way they are “mild” next to other characterizations. Just no way.
Gyrate
March 19, 2014, 6:02pm
1578
$70 billion embezzled. I’m just saying.
CarnalK
March 19, 2014, 6:08pm
1579
I can only suggest you read up on Papa Doc because comparing embezzlement of any size to his crimes(which include funneling away money) is frankly ignorant.
XT
March 19, 2014, 6:14pm
1580
You do understand that the guy was saying he’s ‘Ukraine’s version of Papa Doc Duvalier’ which means he’s not making a 1 for 1 comparison (even leaving aside the obvious use of hyperbole on the authors part), but instead saying he’s more Papa Doc Lite…right?
It’s kind of a silly thing to go on an on about, to be honest. Ok, it’s hyperbole…I get that. Moving on, do you feel that this use of one over the top sentence invalidates the rest of what he’s saying there?
