Russia has invaded Ukraine. How will the West respond?

[Gyrate]

I think we should argue about whether Yanukovych was more like Hitler, Papa Doc, Pol Pot or Barney the Dinosaur, because that’s more important than the land grab, illegal occupation, suppression of dissent, book burnings, imminent pogrom againt the Tatars, and potential war in Europe in progress.

Priorities.

[CarnalK]

@XT

It’s kind of a silly thing to go on an on about, to be honest. Ok, it’s hyperbole…I get that. Moving on, do you feel that this use of one over the top sentence invalidates the rest of what he’s saying there?

It stuck out for me and made me not want to click and read the full article. He just screamed his bias so loud and I would really prefer some objectivity. Most of what you quoted just doesn’t really stand out as very enlightening on the situation. ie:

After Yanukovych fled and a democratic government assumed power, we rejoiced. Finally, we thought, Ukraine would be able to become “normal” – free, democratic, liberal and Western. We were euphoric. The death of the country had been averted.

Seriously? “We” were “euphoric”? We all thought Ukraine’s massively corrupt political landscape was going to be “free, democratic, liberal and Western” because Yanukovych got run out of town? Gimme a break. And the “death of the country” I guess equals stronger trade ties with Russia?

[Terr]

Live UNSC meeting on Ukraine: http://webtv.un.org/

[NotfooledbyW]

@Human_Action

Feel free to familiarize yourself with the scholarly definition, discussed here.

Even your scholars tentatively call it a coup and not constitutional. What is your point?

This language suggests that regardless of whether we see Yanukovych’s flight as an abdication, or his impeachment as legal, power should have been transferred to then-Prime Minister Serhiy Arbuzov. Power instead went to the speaker of the parliament, Oleksandr Turchynov. At this point I cannot say whether Arbuzov recused himself (I would greatly appreciate feedback on this point), but given my current reading I cannot see a scenario in which both Yanukovych’s removal and his replacement can both be seen as constitutional.

Clay and I are (“very tentatively”) considering this event to be a coup, albeit what Ulfelder has referred to as a “parliamentary coup.” We will continue to investigate the case and could very well change our classification as we become more educated on the facts.

What matters outside the scholarly world is that Putin was not tentative at all as seeing it as a coup and as not constitutional. The replacement president is not legit.

[RedFury]

The Russians are a tough bunch of bastards

…The February 21st Agreement was co-signed by the foreign ministers of Poland, Germany and France, and witnessed but (wisely) not co-signed by the Russian foreign minister. And then the opposition reneged on the Agreement and unconstitutionally removed Yanukovich from office. In its place came an interim government that, sadly but probably inevitably, included a Deputy Prime Minister and four other members from a far-right (reformed?) Neo-Nazi party, but one nonetheless that up until 6 years ago had its own paramilitary wing, complete with fascistic emblem (formerly used by Svoboda itself).

<snip>

Under any other circumstances, the European Union and United States would be expressing “deep concern” about Svoboda’s participation in government.

And then Crimea happened.

<snip>

To allow Ukraine to go the way of the Baltic states would be another defeat for Russia, and it is clear that Putin is in no mood to see his proud nation humiliated again. Crimea is his insurance policy to make sure that it never happens: a constant reminder to Kiev that he means business, and that southern and eastern Ukraine, with their Russian populations, are vulnerable to actions by “patriotic self-defence units” reacting to provocations from “Neo-Nazis, nationalists and anti-Semites”.

As I wrote yesterday, Putin will be able to force the humiliating surrender of Ukrainian forces in Crimea, because the alternative will be a bloody and costly war in which Ukraine will be torn apart.

Putin will never permit Ukraine to move towards the West.

Because he is one of that tough bunch of bastards, and he wants the world to remember that.

You are not fucking with Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Libya nor Syria. The End.

These people can fight back to The End Of the World. Thread lightly.

[XT]

[QUOTE=RedFury]
You are not fucking with Iraq, Afghanistan, Venezuela, Libya nor Syria. The End.
[/QUOTE]

Huh. Really? 'Cause, you know, it SOUNDS like the same old tune from where I’m sitting.

These people can fight back to The End Of the World. Thread lightly.

Well, that’s reassuring I guess. Wouldn’t want any wishy-washy totalitarian dictators doing land grabs and looking to do more, according to what you quoted there (well, unless Ukraine does the right thing and rolls over and plays dead for mighty Russia, of course).

[Terr]

@XT

Well, that’s reassuring I guess. Wouldn’t want any wishy-washy totalitarian dictators doing land grabs and looking to do more, according to what you quoted there (well, unless Ukraine does the right thing and rolls over and plays dead for mighty Russia, of course).

I know. **RedFury **is orgasmic for Russian fascists. While very scornful of Western ones.

[NotfooledbyW]

On 03-18-2014 at 05:35 PM Batistuta wrote:

Putin is aggressive, but not crazy. Ukraine would prove his Waterloo. We’re underestimating what it would take to invade and control a country larger than Germany, with a population of 45 million, and the explicit support of the West. The Red Army would have to fight for every inch, and Russia’s economy would not be able to take the strain.

On 03-18-2014 at 05:56 PM I replied to Batistuta by saying:

Putin said at the signing of the treaty with Crimea that Eastern Ukraine is not going to be annexed.

On 03-18-2014 at 06:12 PM Malthus goes down the ‘feelings’ route:

Why do I get the feeling that if Putin does invade Eastern Ukraine, we will be hearing a lot about why it is okay because the government in Kiev is illegitimate etc.? I mean, are you (or anyone) going to be seriously upset that he’s lied? Will him lying have any consequences at all?

On 03-18-2014 at 07:22 PM I responded to Malthus’s feelings:

The Ukraine’s new government promised to crackdown on anti-Russian right wing extremists in Ukraine. I see they’ve started doing so.

No need for a Russian invasion of anywhere. Would it be ok with you if Putin and Russian tycoons put their money into Ukraine to fund a protest movement against any Ukraine moves to join the EU and try to remove Yatz… or the next president by ‘popular uprising’ as Human Action calls it.

Maybe its time for a pro-Russia trade tent city protest in Kiev since Putin has witnessed how the government responds to the Molotov voting method after all.

On 2013-19-2014 at 09:55 AM Malthus arrived at this frivolous response:

Heh, you’ve fulfilled expectations even without a further Russian invasion. Congrats

Expectations of what?

[Trinopus]

This is slightly hijackish, so, apologies, but… I’ve been listening to right wing hate radio, and they’re being very uncomplimentary to Obama…

What do they think he should have done?

(I think it’s obvious that there is nothing he could have done that they would ever actually approve, but, using hindsight, what would they say he should have done? If their own idea of a perfect president had been in charge, what would he have done?)

[RedFury]

@XT

Huh. Really? 'Cause, you know, it SOUNDS like the same old tune from where I’m sitting…

Hardly played by the same orchestra. This one seems to have you at a simmer.

I feel for you…all.

[RedFury]

@Terr

I know. **RedFury **is orgasmic for Russian fascists. While very scornful of Western ones.

I might just think this one is worth reporting. Keep your sexual fantasies to yourself, please.

[RickJay]

@RedFury

I might just think this one is worth reporting. Keep your sexual fantasies to yourself, please.

Facts are facts, though. You seem bizarrely happy with Russia’s new, fascist look and it beating up a smaller, weaker country. I don’t really understand why you would be, but there it is.

I suppose anyone, even a Vladimir Putin, has supporters. Heck, the old school fascists like Franco and Mussolini had overseas supporters. I just don’t understand why. They’re so transparently horrible.

[Jonathan_Chance]

@Terr

I know. **RedFury **is orgasmic for Russian fascists. While very scornful of Western ones.

Terr, it is specifically forbidden in the rules to imply that another poster derives sexual gratification from any political - or for that matter any - position or event.

Warning issued, please don’t do it again. These are kind of the least dignified warnings.

[nevadaexile]

Here’s hoping for a $30-50 drop in oil prices. Putin’s government will weakened by this and by the expense of annexing Crimea and perhaps of invading Ukraine proper. It should be fun watching the same Russians cheering for him now, booing and rioting when they watch their economy tank.

Russia jettisoned its outlying regions for several reasons: They were troublesome,expensive and too difficult to maintain. Apparently Putin didn’t learn that lesson, or perhaps he thinks that Ukraine is Georgia.

He’ll soon find out how wrong he is.

[RedFury]

@RickJay

Facts are facts, though. You seem bizarrely happy with Russia’s new, fascist look and it beating up a smaller, weaker country. I don’t really understand why you would be, but there it is.

I suppose anyone, even a Vladimir Putin, has supporters. Heck, the old school fascists like Franco and Mussolini had overseas supporters. I just don’t understand why. They’re so transparently horrible.

I answered that one looong ago to John Mace. Not sure if in this thread or another one, but I am sure neither him nor anyone else qualified my response as worthy of an answer – or perchance they didn’t have one. Which, looking backwards, is the most likely non-response.

You are welcome to look it up and answer though. Just not up to either repeating my response nor looking for it – it’s on record. Which is why I’ve said I write many of these posts as I did w/regards to the Iraq record. Not rubbing it in anyone’s faces, but rather let the record speak for itself. And it does and will.

Be well.

[XT]

[QUOTE=RedFury]
Hardly played by the same orchestra. This one seems to have you at a simmer.
[/QUOTE]

You just keep telling yourself that, Red. Putin is really, really different, right? Sure he is Red, sure he is.

[RickJay]

@RedFury

I answered that one looong ago to John Mace. Not sure if in this thread or another one, but I am sure neither him nor anyone else qualified my response as worthy of an answer – or perchance they didn’t have one. Which, looking backwards, is the most likely non-response.

You are welcome to look it up and answer though. Just not up to either repeating my response nor looking for it – it’s on record. Which is why I’ve said I write many of these posts as I did w/regards to the Iraq record. Not rubbing it in anyone’s faces, but rather let the record speak for itself. And it does and will.

None of this cryptic reply explains why you seem so pleased at the events in Ukraine. Nor do I recall what you said about Iraq in 2003, or, to be honest, much care.

[NotfooledbyW]

This is what makes it quite easy to question the dominant western geo-political mindset and news media that has mostly spewed biased and one-sided reporting on all the events in Ukraine:
Notice how RJ (below) decides that arguments that run counter to his views are irrelevant. On 03-03-2014 at 04:41 PM RickJay wrote this:

Crimea’s the sovereign territory of Ukraine; NotfooledbyW’s ramblings about referenda are irrelevant. Russia is committing multiple acts of war, for which they should rightfully be condemned and punished.

While it is interesting that many Crimeans are ethnically Russian, it’s an irrelevance in terms of this issue. If some of them want to be Russian that’s just too damned bad; they can move towards constitutional change and peaceful secession if they want to, as in fact many places have, successfully and unsuccessfuly, in the past. I don’t see how Crimeans are justified in refusing the legiitmate govermnet’s soverignty, but maybe there is some justification there.

However, that’s not relevant; what is relevant is they certainly have no legal right to be independent of Ukraine. Crimea belongs to Ukraine, even if some of its citizens don’t like who’s running the government, and the rest of the world should support Ukraine in unifying itself.

Russia physically interfering with the process is nothing more than military aggression and imperialism.

It is quite authoritarian to dictate what is and what is not relevant.

Here’s an opposing view to RickJay’s attempted blockade on what is permissible to bring into the debate. This may swing somewhat far in the opposite direction but it is certainly worthwhile to point out that that RickJay’s views and rigidity on this issue fall well short of being objective and fair-minded, specifically to the people of Crimea who truly would rather be rejoined to Russia as well as escape the chaos and extremism that exists in Ukraine.

What’s Wrong with Secession?

And, despite what you hear from the U.S. government and the mainstream U.S. media, it’s not at all uncommon for people to separate themselves from prior allegiances.

It’s especially common amid political upheavals, like Ukraine’s neo-Nazi-spearheaded coup that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych — after he signed an agreement on Feb. 21 to relinquish much of his power, hold early elections and order police to withdraw.

Though this agreement was co-signed by European nations, they stood aside when neo-Nazi militias exploited the police withdrawal and overran government buildings, forcing Yanukovych and many government officials to flee for their lives.

Then, under the watchful eye of these modern-day storm troopers, the rump parliament “impeached” Yanukovych but did not follow the procedures laid out by Ukraine’s constitution. The overthrow was, in reality, a putsch.

***But American political leaders and journalists have pretty well expunged that inconvenient history, making the crisis simply a case of black-hatted villain, Russian President Vladimir Putin, bullying the white-hatted “pro-democracy” coup-making heroes of Ukraine. ***U.S. politicians and pundits now cite the Ukrainian constitution as some sacred document as they argue that Crimea has no right to hold a popular referendum on leaving Ukraine and joining the Russian Federation. President Barack Obama says a Crimean plebiscite would be illegitimate unless Crimea gets permission to secede from the national government in Kiev as stipulated in the constitution.

In other words, the Ukrainian constitution can be violated at will when that serves Official Washington’s interests, but it is inviolate when that’s convenient. That situational view also presumes that some normal constitutional process exists in Kiev when one doesn’t.

Read More: http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/why-joining-russia-might-be-crimeas-most-reasonable-option

[John_Mace]

I’m going to play a little twist on that quote:

“In other words, the [del]Ukrainian[/del] Egyptian constitution can be violated at will when that serves someone’s interests…”

[Rune]

@nevadaexile

Here’s hoping for a $30-50 drop in oil prices. Putin’s government will weakened by this and by the expense of annexing Crimea and perhaps of invading Ukraine proper. It should be fun watching the same Russians cheering for him now, booing and rioting when they watch their economy tank.

You should do more than hope. This conflict was predictable. Europe should be all in fracking for gas independence, both from Russian, the Middle East, and the USA.

Now I read that the Ukrainian government, or what goes for such, is to start a visa system for travel to Russia. Do they really think that is the best way forward to mend a nation consisting of a quarter Russians?