A while ago, I predicted that when the war was over we would discover evidence that France, China, and Russia had been violating U.N. sanctions and providing weapons to Iraq.
Now, the State Department is saying that Russia has been selling prohibited weapons to Iraq, and in fact, may still be selling them:
Worse yet, there are reports that Russians are in Baghdad as we speak, either actively operating gear to use against coalition aircraft or training Iraqis.
Any comments? What should the U.S. do about this? Does this cause anyone to re-think the Russian position that sanctions were working, or re-think the motives behind Russian opposition to the war?
Wouldn’t surprise me at all. My info is old, but my ex was in the Soviet equivalent of Special Forces during Afghanistan (Spetsnaz), and the last I spoke to him (which, given, was in 1991) was finishing up a degree in Middle East Studies. He’d received multiple offers to go to various Middle Eastern countries (the last he was seriously considering was Syria) to do what he described as technical translation, but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if it wasn’t strictly translation, or if others were doing more in the way of hands-on consuting/training.
If he’d gone, it would have been as a private individual, not as any sort of official representative of the Soviet government. Given how many Russian citizens have had some level of combat experience, and how desperate manny of them probably are for cold, hard cash at this point, I wouldn’t be at all suprised if money were talking pretty loudly at this point.
This answer may not be 100% on-point, but I think it’s important to distinguish between official Russian government action and the actions of private parties who happen to be Russian citizens. Although frankly I wouldn’t be surprised if there were Russian officials finding ways to funnel arms to Iraq, either. Iraq has historically been a very good customer, and if nothing else, I’m sure there’s some “post-warranty service” going on. No cite, just a gut feeling from my years of Soviet/Russian experience. Time will reveal, I suppose.
Wonder if anyone helped the Iraqi’s with a chemical weapons plant I think that most of the world will think the US has fabricated the evidence that Russia, France, et. al, were supplying the Iraqi’s with illegal weapons. They’re be some behind the scenes dealings with the State Dept. and the various heads of governments and the US will agree not to make a big deal about the “lapses” of the Russians, etc., if they agree not to be too bitchy about the war. Of course, if large numbers of Coalition soldiers or Iraqi civilians get killed because of these things, then you can bet that the US will scream to high heaven about it.
In the interests of trying to seem to be reasonable, it’s pretty common knowledge that the Russian’s are incredibly cash strapped. If the opportunity arose in the last 5 years for them to make a quick $100 million or so with the sale of arms and technology to Iraq, knowing full well such equipment will get trashed in a true fire-fight with the USA, I honestly don’t believe that the USA Administration is going to be too freaked out.
I truly believe the USA Administration will merely look up on the incident(s) as being a case of “Well… that’s life… they were just doing business” and choose not to make too big a deal of it.
What counts is that the Russians offer assistance as to how the equipment works, and what shortfalls it might have. So long as those particular displays of good will are extended, it shouldn’t be too big a deal it seems to me.
Certainly, the last thing the USA and Russia need these days is an open return to ill-feeling between the two countries.
I don’t think anyone wants that. I see the Russians for what they are - Cynics. And it’s understandable, given their experience in the last century.
But this does chip away at the weight of their argument that ‘the sanctions are working’ in Iraq. While Russia was saying that, they were selling arms to Iraq in violation of those very sanctions.
And so was France, and so was China.
Oh, and let’s not forget Germany. You know that bunker Saddam was hiding in? The one we blasted on the first night of the war? It was built by German engineers.
I think a lot of dirt is going to wind up sticking to these countries, and I think their knowledge of what would be found after an invasion was part of the reason why they were so amazingly virulent about not supporting a second resolution.
Certainly Sam, that’s the innate danger of trying to claim the “high moral ground” isn’t it? Unless you know for certain, absolutely 100% certain that you’re in the clear, geez it can come back to bite you in the arse sometimes.
Still, it has to be said after Milosovic agreed to pull out of Kosovo, and for a brief 24 hour period the Russians rolled INTO Kosovo in their place - well pressure was brought to bear and Russian Foreign Minister Ivan Ivanov was openly, blatantly contrite in a live interview with CNN and admitted it was a misunderstanding and a mistake - within 24 hours of the rollout. So they CAN be realistic if they need to be I rather think.
If they simply come out and state, “Oh yeah… we’re guilty as sin on this one… we’ve been caught out… what can we say? It was business and it was simply too hard to pass up the easy money…” then there shouldn’t be too many repercussions.
What counts though is that the USA should ALSO be gracious and not get too haughty - because doubtless, the USA could probably be held accountable for some unwise weapons deals recently as well I suspect.
Egads, a (former)superpower flouting the will of the UN! What next?
I suggest we invade them forthwith. They have WMD, and if they’ll sell to Saddam they must in cahoots with Al-Quaeda. We must not leave Russia for future presidents to deal with.
Ok… I’ll get serious. These are private companies, probably ones that have bribed certain government officials. That’s just how capitalism works. :shrug:
It would be nice if no one sold weapons to people who are our enemies, but I think that’s a little unrealistic.
The point is that there is a thriving worldwide black market for weapons and countermeasure systems. And I suspect you are aware of that.
Now, if the Russian government is behind the sale of these systems, they should expect hell to pay. And it will take some heat off Bush, that’s for sure.
But if it was a private Russion arms dealer, we can’t really hold the government responsible for that. Granted, if it was a Russian company exporting this stuff direct to Iraq, the government would still be culpable. As it is, the facts are still fuzzy.
So my question regarding the Stingers is that even the US sells systems that sometimes make it to the black market, and have the potential for “stinging” us in the future.
This is another story short on cycles. It may be something significant, no doubt. But let’s wait and see.
Hang on. I’m not criticizing the Russians that heavily, especially since I suspect it’s exactly like you say - some private company that bribed some officials.
My point is that Russia knew this was going on, and yet they claimed the sanctions were working. So did the French. And in the meantime, both countries were actively violating those very sanctions.
We now know that these countries were being duplicitous. Does that not lend weight to the Bush Administration’s belief that the U.N. process was rigged against them, and credibility to their decision to go around it?
The consensus that I’m hearing from editorials within France seem to infer that “Chirac and de Villepin” were seemingly intoxicated with the world wide adulation that their early position garnered - and in doing so - their position evolved from being merely a position of “preferring that military action within Iraq should have concrete UN Approval” to being one which was immeasurably less gracious - that is - a position which was determined to block ANY and all military action within Iraq, whatsoever…"
In doing so, many questions are being asked now in France if “Chirac and de Villepin” have indeed gone too far on this issue. In particular, howls of embarassment are emanating from eminent business leaders apparently.
I haven’t heard too much speculation from within France which would imply that they have something blatant to hide - rather, it would appear that Chirac and de Villepin simply became drunk with the world wide attention and overshot their charter.
So during the ENTIRE negotiation process over U.N. resolutions, the Bush Administration has been hammering on Russia over this. All parties knew exactly what was going on.
Does this shed a little more light on the frustrations the Bush Administration had over the recalcitrance of the Russians?
US officials told The Times that American intelligence had detected a French company selling aircraft and helicopter parts to Iraq for its French-made Mirage jets and Gazelle attack helicopters. The sales have been carried out since at least January.
[quote]
That’s January of THIS YEAR, while the French were busy saying that ‘sanctions were working’.
What I can’t believe is that no one is upset about the jamming gear. If it was meant to jam our radar, radio transmissions, etc. that would be a normal and acceptable use of jamming. That isn’t what this jamming gear is for. It is to screw up the GSP on our smart bombs, meaning that they would be likely to hit civilians, instead of the intended targets. This to me is as bad as using civilians as “human shields”.
What I can’t believe is that no one is upset about the jamming gear. If it was meant to jam our radar, radio transmissions, etc. that would be a normal and acceptable use of jamming. That isn’t what this jamming gear is for. It is to screw up the GSP on our smart bombs, meaning that they would be likely to hit civilians, instead of the intended targets. This to me is as bad as using civilians as “human shields”.
AZCowboy: According to another news report, the Bush Administration decided to intentionally leak this now because they are being stonewalled, and they want action. So they decided to take it public in hopes that the Russian people would pressure their government.
kniz, someone is dropping bombs on you. You use a jamming system that confuses the targeting of the bombs. That system causes the bombs to miss their target and sometimes/often kills civilians.
Who is to blame for their death?
Sam, well that is getting more interesting. Any idea what Bush may do with this?