Russian bots?

[DrDeth]

https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=893971
Jonathan Chance
Moderator

*Guidance: Stop accusing others of being Russian bots
Guys, I love you all dearly. I do.

But this habit you’ve developed of casually accusing others with whom you disagree of being Russian propaganda is really wearing. It’s insulting to your debate opponents, to those reading the threads and to the very nature of the Straight Dope itself.

Henceforth, doing so in GD or PE is considered an insult and is warnable.

Remember, I can’t emphasize this enough. Someone saying something with which you disagree does not automatically make them a troll.

So give it a rest.

Thanks."*

Ok, it’s true. I dont think we have any Russian bots here. There was one poster, now banned that I thought just might have been, but *“Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity”. *

But the Russians did interfere in the 2016 and there’s no doubt the same is and will happen for 2020.

Republican-Led Senate Panel Backs Intelligence Findings On Russian Interference

The Senate report endorsed the core conclusions of the intelligence community assessment that Russia had interfered on a grand scale in the 2016 U.S. presidential election and that Russian President Vladimir Putin directed the interference. “The Committee found that specific intelligence as well as open source assessments support the assessment that President Putin approved and directed aspects of this influence campaign,” the Senate report states.

So, there are Russian bots and trolls. It’s not imaginary.

Now, I had seen a list of things the kremlin spread during 2016- mostly lies and half lies. And I had friends, people I personally knew, diehard Sanders supporters who repeated those same lies and half lies, on Facebook and elsewhere. They werent Russian bots, the kremlin wasnt paying them. But they cheerfully spread the disinformation from the kremlin- sure, maybe 2nd or 3rd hand, yes, but they still spread it.

I have seen the same thing happen here. The kremlin and the GOP will be and are actively spreading disinformation and propaganda*. Of course* some posters here will pick up some of this and post it- I saw it happen in 2016, and I see stuff which I believe has happened just this year.

So, while i agree with the exact words of Jonathan Chance’s notice- that calling posters trolls or Russian bots is a bad thing- that doesnt mean that it’s wrong to say that their words in a post arent generated by the GOPs or kremlins disinformation machine.

There is a large difference between saying “You are a Russian troll”
vs
“Your post is parroting Kremlins lies”.

We have always said here- "attack the post- not the poster. "

While maybe we could possibly have a russian bot here-:dubious: that is either something to report or take to the Pit, where we can accuse a poster of being a troll.

But that doesn’t mean we should not be able to say that the *words of the post *sound like kremlin/gop misinformation. Posters here have spread Russian propaganda- even if they had no idea it came from the kremlin. I can accept that they had no idea of the source- so why not tell them?

Attack the Post- not the Poster. I dont see why that general rule needs to get modified. If the Post sounds like GOp or Kremlin disinformation- why cant we say so?

[RitterSport]

I’m not a mod, but I think what you’re saying is still OK. I can’t find my exchange with a now-banned poster, but he was using a Russian news source to back up claims of, I don’t know, probably something to do with Biden or something. I asked him if he thought, as an American, he should be spreading straight-up Russian propaganda.

I assume that would still be OK. I’m not calling him a Russian troll, I’m telling him that his news sources are propaganda generated by a hostile power.

[EinsteinsHund]

Well this doesn’t seem to be a new rule, if I have always understood the rules rightly that calling someone a troll was an offence anywhere except in the Pit. So calling someone a Russian, Guatemalan or Swiss troll shouldn’t make a difference.

[DrDeth]

@EinsteinsHund

Well this doesn’t seem to be a new rule, if I have always understood the rules rightly that calling someone a troll was an offence anywhere except in the Pit. So calling someone a Russian, Guatemalan or Swiss troll shouldn’t make a difference.

Sure. But unless I am reading this incorrectly, the indication here is saying that calling the post information as coming from the kremlin etc is also been banned.

[Jonathan_Chance]

You are reading it incorrectly.

I posted that in response to an entire series of posts where posters accused others with whom the disagree of being Russian propaganda agents through one form or the other. Even reporting posters as such.

It’s an easy way to devalue one’s interlocutors and is dismissive of any form of debate. It is also often accompanied - when sanctioned - with cries of ‘It’s true!’ and various forms. Trust me, I’ve heard all of them.

[BigT]

@Jonathan_Chance

You are reading it incorrectly.

I posted that in response to an entire series of posts where posters accused others with whom the disagree of being Russian propaganda agents through one form or the other. Even reporting posters as such.

It’s an easy way to devalue one’s interlocutors and is dismissive of any form of debate. It is also often accompanied - when sanctioned - with cries of ‘It’s true!’ and various forms. Trust me, I’ve heard all of them.

Yet you keep missing that the people reporting them actually believe what they are reporting.

Once again, you say “Remember, I can’t emphasize this enough. Someone saying something with which you disagree does not automatically make them a troll.”

Once again, I point out that this is pointless. No one who does this thinks they are doing it because they disagree with them. **Telling someone to not do something they don’t know they are doing will never help. **

I’ve pointed this out several times, and yet I’ve never seen a counterargument. As such, I assume you know I’m right.

[Colibri]

@BigT

Yet you keep missing that the people reporting them actually believe what they are reporting.

I’m not sure how you actually know that. Unless you are one of the ones reporting it. In which case you should stop, because it’s not true.

[Kent_Clark]

@Colibri

I’m not sure how you actually know that. Unless you are one of the ones reporting it. In which case you should stop, because it’s not true.

Wait a second. If I think someone is being a deliberate troll, spammer, or sock puppet, I should report it, right? If I think someone is a bot (Russian or not) shouldn’t I report that as well?

I’m not talking about calling someone out in a thread, I’m talking about reporting.

[Omar_Little]

If I think someone is just a twit, I can report it, but don’t necessarily expect that the mods will do anything about it.

Proving someone is a twit, is probably easier than proving someone is actually a Russian Bot.

[Colibri]

@Kent_Clark

Wait a second. If I think someone is being a deliberate troll, spammer, or sock puppet, I should report it, right? If I think someone is a bot (Russian or not) shouldn’t I report that as well?

We have had lots of trolls, spammers, and sock puppets. Certainly, if you see those, report them. Maybe some of the spam it is due to bots, but just report it as spam. We get virtually no political spam here.* To the best of my knowledge, having investigated hundreds of socks and trolls, we have never had an actual paid Russian troll post here, in the sense of someone who made repeated posts and engaged in any discussion at any level. If you believe someone is a space alien, I suppose you could report it as well, but it would be only slightly less likely.

*I believe I found one instance some years ago of political spam sent from Russia, but that’s it.

[jtur88]

I had hoped this would be clarified in further reading, What exactly is a “Russian bot”? Is it a “software application that runs automated tasks (scripts) over the Internet” (ie, a bot) of Russian origin? Or is it a forum member in good standing, patriotic national of Russia, who reflects a world view different from that of the State Department and Pentagon? In other words, what is described up-thread as “Kremlin lies” from “a hostile power”, even if they emanate from thoughtful humans that we are so happy to treat as “Russian bots”. Not because of their behavior, but their intolerable dissent.

[Larry_Borgia]

Once again, with as much feeling as I can muster, The FSB and IRA do not give one solitary, microscopic shit about about the SDMB.

[Jonathan_Chance]

@jtur88

I had hoped this would be clarified in further reading, What exactly is a “Russian bot”? Is it a “software application that runs automated tasks (scripts) over the Internet” (ie, a bot) of Russian origin? Or is it a forum member in good standing, patriotic national of Russia, who reflects a world view different from that of the State Department and Pentagon? In other words, what is described up-thread as “Kremlin lies” from “a hostile power”, even if they emanate from thoughtful humans that we are so happy to treat as “Russian bots”. Not because of their behavior, but their intolerable dissent.

Well, that would be the question, wouldn’t it?

For me? I’d define it as a person or persons, paid for by the Russians, to post things detrimental to the United States - and western democracies - in an effort to destabilize them as a means of increasing Russia’s operating room on the world stage.

It is NOT people with whom one disagrees in a generalized way and making the accusations only reveals one’s own limited worldview.

If you believe someone is trolling - for whatever reason - report it. That’s all anyone need do.

[jtur88]

@Jonathan_Chance

Well, that would be the question, wouldn’t it?

For me? I’d define it as a person or persons, paid for by the Russians, to post things detrimental to the United States - and western democracies - in an effort to destabilize them as a means of increasing Russia’s operating room on the world stage.

It is NOT people with whom one disagrees in a generalized way and making the accusations only reveals one’s own limited worldview.

If you believe someone is trolling - for whatever reason - report it. That’s all anyone need do.

Is it inconceivable to you that a conscientious Russian, like an American, would not need to be paid to independently foster a view that would favor the global positioning of his own country?

[TheCuse]

@BigT

Yet you keep missing that the **people reporting them actually believe what they are reporting. **

Once again, you say “Remember, I can’t emphasize this enough. Someone saying something with which you disagree does not automatically make them a troll.”

Once again, I point out that this is pointless. No one who does this thinks they are doing it because they disagree with them. Telling someone to not do something they don’t know they are doing will never help.

I’ve pointed this out several times, and yet I’ve never seen a counterargument. As such, I assume you know I’m right.

Bold underscore my emphsis: How do you know? Are you a mind reader?

[Chronos]

Actually, come to think of it, I do kind of wonder why we don’t get Russian bots (or at least, a completely insignificant number of them). Yeah, yeah, because we’re so small that we fall under their radar… but then, you could make the same argument for conventional spammers, and those we get plenty of. If we’re worth a spammer’s time and effort, why aren’t we worth a propagandist’s time and effort?

[TheCuse]

^^^I’ve thought the same thing when folks mention Russian bots or trolls. No offense to the board.

[HMS_Irruncible]

@Chronos

Actually, come to think of it, I do kind of wonder why we don’t get Russian bots (or at least, a completely insignificant number of them). Yeah, yeah, because we’re so small that we fall under their radar… but then, you could make the same argument for conventional spammers, and those we get plenty of. If we’re worth a spammer’s time and effort, why aren’t we worth a propagandist’s time and effort?

Spammers are just spraying out millions of messages hoping that a few people will bite.

Propagandists want people to bite and re-infect. For that you need to try to build trusted personas and you need an automatic way to mass-test messages to see which ones are most popular. Both of those tactics depend on engagement metrics and a good public API. Most modern social networks provide these facilities.

SDMB has neither of those things, hence it takes more effort to build a convincing troll account, and you cannot simply spray a batch of messages to see which one resonates the most. So, to a propagandist, the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze.

[Colibri]

@jtur88

Is it inconceivable to you that a conscientious Russian, like an American, would not need to be paid to independently foster a view that would favor the global positioning of his own country?

Jonathan Chance said nothing of the kind. And I’ve seen no evidence of this either paid or unpaid.

[Colibri]

@HMS_Irruncible

Spammers are just spraying out millions of messages hoping that a few people will bite.

Propagandists want people to bite and re-infect. For that you need to try to build trusted personas and you need an automatic way to mass-test messages to see which ones are most popular. Both of those tactics depend on engagement metrics and a good public API. Most modern social networks provide these facilities.

SDMB has neither of those things, hence it takes more effort to build a convincing troll account, and you cannot simply spray a batch of messages to see which one resonates the most. So, to a propagandist, the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze.

“Russian bots” exist, but the term has mostly been used in connection with Twitter and other social media accounts in which large numbers of posts can be made automatically. The accusations here are generally made against posters who are clearly not just posting automated messages, but are actually engaging in some fashion. If they are “bots,” then the Russians are so far ahead of us in AI that we might as well give up. As I’ve said, for an actual human to spend time posting here to outrage what might be a few dozen people who are very unlikely to accept their misinformation would be a complete waste of money.