S.D. Gov'r "inclined" to ban abortions, shoves head up ass

The BBQ Pit
261

I agree, the child could be told who it’s parents are if it is known,Most anti abortion people do not want to raise the child themselves,and do not want to pay for the child’s up keep, Most(that I know) Just are pro=birth and want to push their beliefs on others. If the so called pro life people were really interested in saving lives they would volunteer and would be sacrificing for all the born people who are dying of starvation in other countries,plus the ones that are born here.

If the person had a choice of keeping the fetus and not being able to abort she may decide to give it up so another woman could bear it then no one could say she was killing her ‘child’, just adopting it out and not endanger her mental and physical health.

Of course this is tounge in cheek.

Monavis

Monavis

262

God, this thread is appalling.

I will step up here and state that I had a first trimester abortion in 2001. I was 39 years old. If I had remained pregnant, that would have been my 4th child. With pregnancies 2 and 3, I had gestational diabetes (undiagnosed in #2, but his birthweight was 10lbs 4 oz, 22 inches).

I have lost two sisters to juvenile diabetes. I would rather have cancer than diabetes–DM is a silent, ugly killer that effects all body systems insidiously and permanently. It is a horrible disease for most folks–and even those who are meticulous about their diet etc can still go blind, lose their kidneys, limbs–shall I go on?

There was no way in hell that I was going to put my body through that again–I also felt rather a strong obligation to the children already present and in need of my mothering. I had an abortion–and fell into a deep depression, because I love kids. I wanted 4 kids. But God gave me intelligence and judgement and foresight. Every bit of them said, don’t chance it. With a minimal weight loss (I’ve never been obese), I have normal blood sugars. And I am here ( healthy) to raise my kids. Do I mourn the one I couldn’t have? Why, yes, I do. Life is full of difficult choices and once a path is chosen, other paths are closed to us. That is the way it is–and no amount of sanctimonious sexist bigotry will change that.

Updike --did you READ the words of John Paul II? Who the fuck are you to talk of excommunicating anyone? Get over yourself.

As for the frightening worldview that is raindog’s --where is the daddy in your little scenario? Is the 13 year old “man” going to contribute to your grandbabies upkeep? Is there a shotgun marriage in these kids’ future? Do the parents of the “man” have any say so here? If I were your daughter in this scenario, I would run as fast and as far as I can from you and your Stepford female ideal.

Being pregnant at 12 carries physical risks for the girl. The infant mortality is also much higher (but then you get that righteous feeling of it was the hand of God that took that baby, I suppose).

I really find myself siding more and more with whoever upthread who said that men shouldn’t not be in on this choice. So far I ahve heard exactly no man state that HE is willing to be sterilized or double condom. I find that salient fact most telling.

263

Because I forgot to put it in my post earlier.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but unless it is your body, psyche or immortal soul (delete as appropriate) involved your opinions don’t count.

With possible exceptions if you’re spiritual advisor, doctor, partner or therapist of the woman concerned, in which case, your opinion might be solicited and you should give it honestly.

Even then, she can tell you to shove your opinions up your arse and should do whatever she, personally feels is best.

Because, buddy, it is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

264

These threads leave me with the palpable impression that we are living in a time and generation that is lost. Lost intellectually, mentally, morally, spiritually, and culturally.

Abortion is just the most egegious example of the Me First generation; a generation that is steeped in selfishness, gradualism, relativism and individualism.

It is my view that this is manifested in a culture that is obsessed with instant gratification, and an aversion to accept personal responsibility. A generation that believes that restraint is oppresion, that considers traditional social mores to be antiquated. A society that devalues all life.

To be fair and accurate, many of those who are Pro-Life have their convictions rooted in religious beliefs. It is reasonable for those who reject religious tenets to feel as if they’re being set upon.

But it is not exclusively a religious issue, and there are extremely compelling reasons to reject abortion without religious undertones/overtones.

I used to believe (and still do mostly…) that the primary question—from which all answers/policies/laws must flow is:

I never would have believed that any civilized society, that would have acknowledged a fetus as a human life, would have allowed a single abortion (taking rape/incest/mothers health off the table for a moment) to occur for something as capricious as ‘having this baby will change my plans.’ (and the myriad of similar ‘reasons’)

Yet I was amazed some months ago in a similar thread when some posters said bluntly that it didn’t matter to them one bit if it was a human life or not. They were not going to be inconvenienced one single bit, human life or not.

And so I think that the central question, “When does Life begin” may in fact not be the central question at SDMB. Rather, the question seems to be, "What is the value of a human life?"

265

Interesting questions and I appreciate the measured tone of the post. The answer to this question is yes.

Yes I would.

A very qualified yes. I think that both sides of this exhibit inconsistencies and at times, hypocrisy. I suspect it’s easier for the PL crowd; it’s pretty clear cut. They seem to wrestle with the issue of rape/incest/and the health of the mother, especially as it relates to politics. (which I think often clouds their judgement)

As to the PC crowd, they seem to have many more things to consider, and there appears to much more discord, and difference of opinion/terminology/timeframes etc. In fairness to the PC crowd, the PLers have the luxury of ‘all or nothing’ (w/ the exception of the aforementioned rape/incest) whreas the PCers have to consider things in a much less black and white enviornmet

266

Your post I think embodies much of what’s wrong with the PC viewpoint, for just how unremarkable it is. Let me explain:

The circumstances you describe that led up to your pregnancy are being repeated by young women (with equally complicit young men) every single day. There’s absolutely nothing remarkable about your story—and it could easliy serve as a template for what really goes on.

But as we look at the choices that you made, it’s interesting that you start by listing your credentials as a [previously] PLer. What happened that you went from PL to PC?* You got pregnant!* You do not share with us any epiphany about the beginning of life, no scientific breakthrough, no religious conversion, no repudiation of religious upbringing…you simply got pregnant, and that was enough for you to reject your pro life ‘convictions.’ I would submit that convictions are conceptual, a set of ideals; a personal mission statement of sorts. Like a check, the value is purely conceptual. The value is only real when demand for payment is made; the check is cashed. They become convictions to the extent that they are backed with action; that they stand up under test/duress. It would seem to me that you at one time believed that the fetus in your classmate’s wombs were humans; children. But the minute your womb had one it was a different story.

Lapel pins and bumper stickers are not convictions.

Let’s look at your choices:

  1. You began a sexual relationship with a young man* at a time when you lacked the maturity to fully understand what you could and could not handle. That is not an indictment of you—most 20 year olds lack the capacity to make mature decisions in this matter. Yet, you, “thought that I was prepared to have a child if one should happen accidently…”
  2. Without the benefit of marriage*, or some other indication that this relationship was a ‘permanent’ one, you moved in together. There was simply, “talk of marriage…”
  3. You were encouraged by an amazingly misguided and irresponsible parent who encouraged you to get pregnant, even before you were done with schooling. He even offered to pay money and “extra” for a son!
  4. You attempted to practice safe sex, but by your own admission, "fairly responsibility for two young kids really in love/lust for the first time." Even so,* “…in the heat of passion we could occasionally get careless…”*
  5. Inspite of the fact that “Neither of us were ready to be parents” you acted an lived as parents do. Should there be any question or surprise that you ended up as parents? (which based on your beliefs at the time, is exactly what the two of you were)

I know this was a very hard thing for you, and I know you are/were sincere. But the fact is that you----through your actions, active and passive, planned and unplanned----and the adults close to you, put yourself on a trajectory that guranteed the result you experienced.

The true start of your story began when you, “got heavily involved with a young man” at the age of 20. But poster after poster after poster wishes to start the story at the end; as **catsix ** puts it, "an abortion is a way of dealing with the results."

There is a pandemic of forrest fires. Rather than finding the cause and learning to prevent fires, the cry here is “Buy more fire engines!”

267

This would only be true if “preventing its creation in the first place” didn’t require an abortion!

But if you need an abortion, you did create it!

And if you created it, and if it is a child, than killing it is indeed more irresponsible that giving birth. (notwithstanding a potentially poor quality of life)

268

To the extent things like this offend me, this does. It does not represent *in any way * the tone, tenor or substance of what I said. I know how strongly we all feel about the subject, so maybe you’re just keyed up.

While there may be something to talk about here, I’m not going to legitimize the post by wading through the mindless hyberbole and mire to find it. I’m open to discussion, just not this one.

What the heck is this?

269

Why is it that people who wish to make my choices for me, and force me to live with the results of the choices they make, are always calling **me ** selfish?

270

I agree with you.

Those who oppose abortion, and who wish to control women and their bodies, exhibit exactly the sort of wayward moral and intellectual compass that you describe.

I hope that you can find it within yourself to develop a more humane outlook.

271

I would have to say that the reason PC’ers see it as less black and white and more gray, is because it is. There are many shades of gray. And for every reason a PC person has given a reason that abortion should be legal, it’s because at some time, that scenario has presented itself.

It isn’t as black and white as “it’s a person and killing is evil.” There are extinuating circumstances to everything; we don’t live in a black and white world. There is no way of knowing what is best for everyone. That’s why it has to be up to the pregnant woman, and ONLY up to her. She is the only person who knows her situation and what she is and is not capable of doing. Unfortunately, making abortioin illegal applies a one-size-fits-all mentality to a complex situation, one that patently does NOT work for everyone.

I most definitely wanted to offend you with my post. Because, essentially, that is what you would be telling your daughter. That you are making her decision for her, that her input means nothing, and that, regardless of how SHE PERSONALLY sees this person growing inside her, you want her to welcome this punishment (as that is what it essentially is) and not feel the very human response of resentment at the prospect of being forced to change her life forever to please you. I’m sure you don’t see it that way at all, but that’s what it comes down to. What if she decides to go through with an abortion anyway, without your blessing? Would you kick her out of your house? Make her life a living hell for defying you? Chain her to her bed and never let her leave her room?

Human beings make mistakes all the time. Regardless of her choice, she would be living with the outcome of that mistake for the rest of her life. But I think you should allow her to be the one to make it. I also think, if she’s the daughter you believe her to be, you should trust her in her choice.

272

Thanks for your reply, the raindog; it’s nice to know that there are people on the pro-life side that look at things logically.

I don’t really think you and me, or any pro-choicer, can come to a compromise here, though. Your central question:

…is pretty much the central question for me, too, though I would alter “life” to “personhood” because, well, a snail is life. A removed organ may be kept alive for some time, and this would count as “human life”. That’s why I put the unequivocal “spark” that makes we as humans different, and worth not killing, as “personhood” rather than just as “life”.

You regard that “spark”, the human quality, as beginning at conception. I don’t think it’s present until much later in the pregnancy, and I believe it develops over time as the brain develops physically. I don’t believe we can reconcile this disagreement - unless you can prove to me that that “spark” is there at conception, or I can prove to you it isn’t, any other debate about this subject is valid but unimportant, relatively.

I would like to address this point you’ve made, though;

People have pointed out in this thread (including me) that when deciding whether to have an abortion the life of the (potential, from our point of view) child *is * an important factor to consider. We’re not just saying “Hmm, I do not want to raise this potential child, it would be far too hard, i’ll just get rid of it”. It’s more like “I cannot take care of this potential child; to do so would be to ruin my life, the father’s life, and the potential life of that child. I would not want to raise a child in such horrible conditions. I will have an abortion because were I to bring it to term, it would have negative consequences for me and that child.”

A woman having an abortion does * care about that potential life. It is not a case of simply saying “I don’t want it, that’s all there is to say” (well, not all women - there are people of course who do look on that as the only thing to consider) but of "I don’t want it, and to bring it up would be to doom it’s life as well as mine*".

I just take issue with your belief that all women who have an abortion do not at think of that potential child.

273

Sorry, that last line should read “I just take issue with your belief that all women who have an abortion do not at all think of that potential child.”

274

Look! We found some common ground right out of the gates!

Well…it wasn’y my scenario actually. It was presented to me.

So I don’t know where that whippersnapper is. Ask Spongemom to give me some background on the young man and I’ll offer you my views on him.

As to the other questions, there is no marriage for my hypothetical 12 year old. Nor does the 13 year old likely have the capacity to pay child support—a fact that will change at age 18 I would imagine—and even then he might pay (based on state laws) some sum relative to his capacity to pay. There are consequences to our choices—and he is not exempt. It is for this reason I do not buy the moaning by men who get women pregnant and don’t like the fact he has no say in whether she gets an abortion or not.

Along those lines…if a grown woman is the only arbiter as to whether she gets an abortion or not—and that holds true even if she has a boyfriend/husband that will be obligated to years of child support----why should the 13 year old boy have any greater rights over my 12 year old daughter’s body than his grown male counterpart? So…to answer your question, the parents not only 'have a say" they are invited to have a say! They’re invited to participate in every way that they would like—to help financially, morally, mentally, practically —in any way. That say doesn’t extend to abortion however.

I haven’t appealed to God, have I?

The question, in my view is, “Is this a child?” If it is, I can think of no compelling reason that this child shouldn’t have all the rights of any other child.

And the only way to answer that question is by answering,

275

Well, to be fair the raindog, you also believe we are living in the End Times. It is very much in your interest (with regards to your religion and worldview, I mean, not to ascribe some sort of personal perversity to you) to perceive the world, and worldly people, as evil, selfish, insensible creatures, as evidenced in your reductionistic perception of abortion as a matter of ‘convenience’.
(And funny how you forgot to mention in the hypothetical example involving your children that if one did indeed become pregnant, depending on your position in the church and her un/ baptized state, she would be subject to any or all of the following: disfellowship (similar to excommunication), shunning (sitting in the back of the congregation and not spoken to by anyone) for a year or two, interrogation by the elders (who are similar to ministers or church leaders), and, if she were a bit older, say 16 or so, getting kicked out of the house and family altogether.)

I’m not sure how the presence of a wedding ring on kimera’s finger would have made her relationship any more stable, or how it would have prevented any of the emotional tumult she experienced. Hence, question 1: Since married women also have abortions, are you arguing that no one should have any sex unless they want to have a child (and are magically immune to any doubts or reversals of fortunes like kimera, of course)?

But let’s say for a moment that you are right: all of us are nothing but hypocritical, selfish, egotistical, immoral, insensible monsters, having abortions for the most vapid, superfluous reasons known to man.
**Question 2:**So what?
You pointing this out does absolutely nothing to actually prevent an abortion. It does not address or posit a solution for the poverty, the lack of education, the fear, the abuse or the immaturity that lead to a good number of abortions. It has nothing to do with the situations like elenorigby’s, where a stable family already exists, and the addition of another child would endanger the life of family members. Or the family who, with another child, would be unable to afford the needs (food, clothing, rent, insurance, etc) of a larger familiy. It doesn’t even posit a solution to the inhumanity you posit. So…what’s your answer?

276

And I answered you. Several pages ago. Right here.

And, as predicted:

277

Who chose for you to have sex?

What choices did they (?) make that they’re forcing you to live with?

Would it be the choice, codified in law, that you were not permitted to kill another human being? Is that the choice you’re referring to?

I mean your story—like so many others—assumes you have no power, that you are a victim, that you make/made no choices.

Yet you choose to start your post only after your choices—your choice to have sex*, and with the full understanding that sex produces children.

You want to begin the discussion halfway through the story! It’s not a coincidence that is only after you can be questioned about your own choices, and accepting personal responsibility for them.

The inference is that you have no choices. Quite the contrary!
Now, if that’s a child, which can only be answered by the question:

than the state has a compelling interwest in that child, and respectfully says that the life of that child is more compelling than the fact is will screw up your plans.

You can’t kill that child because he/she is a [potential] burden to you, any more than you can go down stairs and smother your infirmed grandmother because she is a burden.

If it’s child, society needs to rcognize that the life of that child is greater than your plans, social life, or how you will look in a bikini.

278

This is stupid and I’ll regret this, but here goes: it’s not a child at conception–it’s a POTENTIAL child. Any number of things may occur between conception and birth to end the life of this “child”. A blastocyte/zygote/fetus is not a child.
I see no onus put on the 13 year old father. I see no teaching or role modeling by you of appropriate choices re birth control and sexual partners. Are your girls just to be “good” girls? Been there, done that. Having that assumption led in my life to a helluva lot of guilt and shame and secrecy on my part re sex and boys and contraception. Good girls are only “good” for so long. People like to fuck-get that thru your head. It’s not gonna stop, AB outlawed or no.

And again, I see NO effort or support on your part of the MALE’s responsiblity–I see lip service. Where is the joint custody, the covering of expenses, the loss of education and earning power? How DARE you do marginalize your daughter in this way? “Gosh, honey, I sure love you-let me cut you off at the knees for the rest of your life. Smile, now-no more tears. You made a mistake and since you’re female–there’s no going back for you. Johnny’s sure to visit you when he gets out of military school, but he also needs to go to college. Not you-you get to stay home and live with your “choice”.”
Sucky parenting, IMO. Bad choices. And at 18, you’re on your own, with minimal job skills and a 6 year old. Cope. Unbelievable. The arrogance. The hatefulness of it. The sheer temerity of such ignorance and narrowmindedness takes my breath away. All that is left is for you to share with us that YOU were a virgin when you got married. That you never got a girl pregnant outside of wedlock. ( and IF you weren’t a virgin, how do you know that you never did?). Hence, if ALL the world lived as raindog did, the world would be a beautiful place. What a complete crock.

And what if the 13 y/o’s parents want an abortion? Do you see how crazy this gets? I am against parental consent for just this reason–where does the line get drawn? WHO the fuck are you to tell your daughter that she is required to spend the rest of her life caring for a child that is most likely unwanted? You are NOT God-you’re a parent. She’s a child–chlidren should not have children.

Unfortunately, our sex organs mature long before our judgement does. Cope with that. Cope with the fact that we make mistakes. Cope with the fact that not all children are wanted. Should we leave them out on the hillsides to starve or be eaten as they did in ages past? Most cultures practiced some form of infanticide throughout history. We are a brutal animal. But of course, if AB is illegal, than you all can play Pontius Pilate, no? this whole POV makes me sick. You dare to talk of morals? bah.

279

FTR, I haven’t appealed to religion, doctrine or theology in this discussion. You may have some interest in heading off in that direction, but I do not.

The question,

is as much a societal, intellectual, political, scientific and cultural question as any other.

I just don’t think you get it. If it’s a child, then you just don’t kill it!

• You don’t kill it because it may lack for a good education.
• You don’t kill it beacuse it may live in poverty.
• You don’t kill it because you can’t afford it.
• You don’t kill it because you have a stable family and the pregnancy was unplanned.
• You don’t kill it because the parents are immature.

280

Go ahead–keep demonizing the females of the species. Keep your cock in your pants and your hands to yourself, you stupid person you.

You have been shown repeatedly in this thread how the decision to abort is not made lightly by the VAST majority of women. To continue to characterize it in this way demonstrates to me that you are un-intelligent, un-informed and proud to remain willfully ignorant. In short, you are a stupid fuck. If I had known from the outset that you were an Endtimer, I would have refrained from this exercise in futility. I have no respect for you or your position. I pity your daughters and have dismay for your sons.

And I am reminded (yet again) of that pity phrase: Right wing Christians love to hate and hate to love. You may well be surprised when you get to those Pearly Gates that mean so much to you.