S.D. Gov'r "inclined" to ban abortions, shoves head up ass

When it’s an actual person, then we can talk. Personhood was defined in Roe, as well.

Not at all. Just that you are insisting on the right to take one of those choices away from me. No. You don’t even know me, you cannot make my choice for me. I reject your insistence that you be allowed to do so.

Sometimes. Even with all attempts to make sure that becoming pregnant does not happen. I’m human. Humans have sex. In the vast majority of cases, they don’t wait til marriage.

I am. I’m accepting personal responsibility by deciding whether or not to have a child. And despite your posts to the contrary, this post of yours shows very much that you believe a pregnancy should be a punishment. How DARE you have sex? You brought it on yourself! Judgemental prick.

No. The statement is that YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE ONE OF THOSE CHOICES AWAY. And you are. That isn’t up to you. Why? Because it isn’t your fucking body, asshole! Or your life! You don’t get to make choices for everyone else! Deal with it and live your own damn life and I’ll live mine. But stay the fuck out of my womb. I didn’t have sex with YOU, therefore, YOU do not get a say. And even if I had, I may listen to your opinion, but it’s still up to ME.

Ah, we’re moving goalposts now, are we? Alright. Even so, the SCOTUS agrees with scientific evidence that “personhood” does not begin til sometime during the second trimester. Linky. So u=you’re wrong on that score, too.

Difference? One is already alive and self sustaining. A separate entity. I realize you keep trying to make that fetus a separate person, but no matter how hard you try, you are going to run into the rather large brick wall of scientific fact which states that just ain’t so.

Actually, try this one on for size. Because I was in nursing school, and there was no way for me to take care of that child and complete school. As an Emergency Room nurse, I saved more than just one life (no, I don’t believe in false modesty). had I not become a nurse, I wouldn’t have. And we can’t say for certain that those people would have lived. So. What’s more important? One clump of living cells that may or may not be viable, or 10 (or so) people, plus the babies I helped deliver? Who are you to say which of those lives was more important?

With all due respect, I have not once appealed to God, theology, doctrine or the bible in this thread. Not once.

Further, while I find your views “appalling” as you say; I would not call you names or seek to denigrate you. In fact, I was offended at DirkGntly’s comments to catsix–a woman who I profoundly disagree with—and said as much in defense of her. And nothing I’ve said in this thread warrants calling me names.

Fortunately, I don’t have to talk to you. I think there are more than enough people to discuss this with who can maintain their composure.

Ah, and so we come to it.

the raindog is one of those people who is convinced that all women who have abortions are thoughtless, irresponsible people who are callously killing babies so that they can continue to climb the career ladder all day and fuck strange men all night.

He is a misogynist. He is a zealot. He is not worth the effort and good will I have spent in this discussion. And most importantly, he is wrong.

No,m I have no interest in talking religion - it just seems rather disingenous that when you discussed your personal (though hypothetical) reaction to your daughter’s pregnancy, you left a large part (the religous part) out.

So, how about answering my questions:
Ought no one, including married people, have sex unless they want a child?
What do your pronouncements of the faults of society have to do with preventing abortions?

There is enough effort needed to speak for ourselves, let alone the time and [impossible] task of speaking for someone else!

Now you just said,* “the raindog is one of those people who is convinced that all women who have abortions are thoughtless, irresponsible people who are callously killing babies so that they can continue to climb the career ladder all day and fuck strange men all night.”*

although that’s not what I think at all! Or anything close to it!

I think we’re chewing up a lot of perfectly good bandwidth talking about the wrong issue frankly, and I suspect a few are starting to lose their composure.

I have to get back to my grindstone. Perhaps I can post tonight or tommorrow.

So, why are you ignoring the definitions I’ve given you of the questions you’ve asked, raindog? It seems like every time someone presents you with a perfectly valid, scientific response, you hold your hands over your ears and close your eyes and then run away.

Herein lies the problem with post PL advocates. When faced with fact, they act as if it doesn’t exist. As if that will somehow make it go away.

Don’t hang around holding your breath, Maureen. If I actually needed that kidney, I’d be dead by now.

As opposed to the “Females are property” generation you seem to belong to ?

Only if you belive that a fetus is a person, which is nonsense.

You look at half the human race as incubators, and reduce children to the equals of mindless lumps of flesh. That’s devaluing life, not abortion.

No, there are not.

A fetus is not a human life, and regarding them as such is typically a mark of brutally oppressive societies, not civilized ones. Abortion is morally irrelevant, save perhaps in the late stages of pregnancy; it is morally permissable for any reason or no reason at all.

Not relevant to abortion. A fetus isn’t a human life.

But it’s not a child. Frankly, abortion is more responsible than giving birth, because of the uncertain nature of life. If you’re so worried about responsibility, don’t have kids, ever. It’s not like you can protect a child from all harm after all, save by making sure he/she never exists.

It’s more or less implied by opposition to abortion; that, or hatred/predation of women and children.

A billion or so years ago, IIRC. Sperm and eggs are alive, as are bacteria. Humanity is defined by the mind, and at the earliest, that starts in the third trimester ( they don’t even have normal human brainwaves before then ) ; IMHO, it’s more likely sometime after birth.

BUT. IT’S. NOT.

So the entire family should starve ? A family should be destroyed for a lump of flesh ?

Liar. You’ve made you’re misogyny quite clear.

Speaking of lies, I don’t believe for a moment your speech about how much you love and respect your daughters; I’d be surprised if you’re more than indifferent. Given the malice you have toward women, I expect you’re nasty or outright abusive towards them.

Not a chance, chickie. I’d have you hooked up to a hemodialysis machine quicker than grease through a goose. Ve haff vays of making you liff. :wink:

And what you are talking about, right here, succintly expresses why women often get offended when men pontificate about the selfishness of abortion.

Because you are a man, your “convictions” about abortion are every bit as conceptual as you say kimera’s were. Unless you are in the shoes of a woman having an unwanted pregnancy–unless you know how if feels to know that for whatever reason you are just not fit to be a host for another human being right now—then all you’re doing is preaching from the top of a tower in the Theoretical Land of the Self-Righteous. Your “convictions” can never be tested in the same way that a woman’s can, because it will never be your body or life on the line. It will always be someone else’s body. Someone’s else life. Someone else’s fetus. It is therefore quite easy for you to have the opinion that the right to life trumps all other rights, including those of the woman. You don’t have to worry about having any of your rights abrograted.

I believe that you are sincere when you say that your 12 year old daughter would not be permitted to have an abortion should she become pregnant. But until that happens, until your daughter comes home and tells you with tears streaming down her cheeks that she is pregnant, and until you find out that the father of that conceptus is no naive little boy but a grown, lecherous adult (where do you draw the line between a “mistake” and “victimization”; it’s kind of hard at age 12) …until you have been there, you really don’t know what you’ll do. It is all concepts and ideas and hypotheticals for you.

Remember that the next time you’re compelled to lecture a woman about her lack of conviction.

Nice distraction technique–my “lack of composure”(ah, that hysterical female accusation–Freud would be proud. Did you know that the root “hys” comes from the word uterus–yep, even Freud was a bit of a misogynist) should be irrelevant to the thread.

Sweetums, this is the Pit. Deal. Also, I stated I found this thread “appalling”–you I found to be stupid. Willful ignorance=stupidity in my book.

Frankly, I don’t care if you didn’t bring up religion in any way. Your attitude towards women is enough for me to Pit you without the apocalyptic mumb-jumbo.

Girls who have babies at a young age tend to have babies who have babies young, if you follow me. Of course, apparently they do this asexually, since the Papas are just not in this picture. Or do they ensnare and entrap men, like the Sirens of old? Tell me, how do all these sluts keep getting knocked up?

The hypocrisy and misogyny here are a bit much for me-I am home today with a bad head cold. I’m taking a breather.

Having read through this entire thread, I have to disagree with that.

Raindog has a much different outlook and opinion on the topic than I do, but I think his arguments have been very calmly laid out. He feels strongly, just like most of us. Personally, I think he seems pretty compassionate, especially with his explanation about what he’d do if his daughter was put in the situation.

His morals are different than yours (or mine for that matter), but he comes off rationally and sensitively on a very divisive topic.

Oh yeah, the politicians of South Dakota can go to hell.

Were he to simply give it as his opinion and not present it as fact, then I’d be inclined to agree. I disagree with Weirddave on the subject, but at least he acknowledges that it is his personal opinion and he doesn’t believe he has the right to force his opinion to be the deciding factor of women he’s never even met, much less had sex with. The Raindog makes no such distinction. He doesn’t believe women should have the right to make decisions regarding their own reproduction, he doesn’t base his opinion on science or the laws of this country, he doesn’t even acknowledge that endangering the life of a 12 year old child by forcing her to undergo a pregnancy her body may not be ready for is irresponsible.
Those opinions are not made more valid simply because they are laid out calmly.

Unfortunately for the raindog, things are never as simple as they seem. The history of abortion, if we can take Justice Blackmun’s words for truth, and they are footnoted, is somewhat more considerably checkered than would appear.

Much like the ‘under God’ in the Pledge of Allegiance, these laws are simply out of memory of much of America, and thus, ‘have always been.’ But the memory of one generation is not always true, and even within that generation, within twenty or ten or five years, the mind may forget, may romanticize, may simply not understand what happened, when, say, a cousin ‘went to the farm’ for a semester.

Raindog, old boy, you are simply wrong.

No, it doesn’t. They’re both alive. The act of twinning creates a new life, just as conception does.

“Life begins at conception” does not equal “Life only begins at conception” or even “Conception is the only way that life can ever occur.” You and I have discussed this before, and I hope that you will learn this distinction.

In an effort to redeem maledom in your eyes, I don’t really think men should have a say; also, I volunteered to be sterilized (in fact, I would’ve insisted) if my wife’s marena IUD didn’t work out.

But it did, so there’s that. :slight_smile:

Indygrrl
I’m not new here, and so I knew that venturing into this thread wouldn’t make me any more popular than I already am. :wink:

You’re right; this is a very divisive topic and one that I think everyone feels very strongly about.

And while we feel differently about the subject, I appreciate that you took the time to post this.

Well, there’s one. Thank you (I think?)

I didn’t mean to knock men in general, but seriously, this a societal issue, not a situation where thoughtless, irresponsible women get pregnant and then schedule abortions to coordinate with their manicures. :rolleyes:

Actually, I’ve thought long and hard (no pun intended) about getting a vasectomy, just to help avoid this situation.

You would think that, with multiple persons pointing out the discrepancies in your arguments, you’d address those. If you want huggles, go to MPSIMS. Otherwise, stick to the topic. I addressed “when does life begin?” I addressed “when does personhood begin?”, and DianaG is still waiting for your response regarding organ donation. So, either your presence here is to seriously discuss the topic, (in which case: defend your position), or you’re being a jerk. Which is it?