Sailor Moon is not a documentary

DISCLAIMER: I’m not an otaku. I have never seen manga, and have only seen a few anime movies/shows. The closest I’ve ever come to being an otaku was a passing interest in watching Dragonball Z, which I gather would make me a loser in the eyes of most “serious” anime fans anyway.

With that said…

Chas.E, what’s your deal? Why do otaku make you so angry? I can see where it might irritate you since you’re in the fairly unusual position of actually knowing what Japanese culture is really like, but man… you seem to really hate these people. People get obsessed with all sorts of odd things from needlepoint to S&M/bondage porn, yet you seem to think a bunch of harmless otaku-types are evil incarnate. What gives?

::giant drop of sweat forms on the back of my head::

uh…

::gets into giant mechanical cat::

[Army of Darkness]
Alright, who wants some…
[/Army of Darkness]

Harmless? Sometime I’ll tell you the lengthy story about the obsessed otaku who started sending me death threats because I had the nerve to inform him his favorite “Japanese” manga was written by a couple of aging hippies in Los Angeles (I knew them personally). I had to call the police to get him off my back.

I am offended by otaku for the same reason that I’d be offended at someone going into the Library of Congress to read this week’s National Enquirer. Japanese culture is a huge repository of amazing cultural information, and the otaku are obsessed with the most trivial, inane aspect of it. And they’re even PROUD of this.

Furthermore, otaku represent the dumbing-down of Asian Studies. My own university is considered the #1 school in the world for Japanese Film Studies. Even grad students from Japan come here, because we have more resources than any university in Japan. In order to keep their departmental funding by attracting a full class load, Japanese film classes have had to replace the classics like Ozu, Kurosawa, etc, with anime.
When I started Japanese language studies in about 1992, my classes were full of a diverse collection of students from Film Studies, Business, comp sci, Art majors, etc. and none of them had the least interest in manga/anime before they started their studies. Over the last few years, those students have all gone away and were replaced by otaku. And NONE of those otaku EVER achieve any decent level of fluency, not a single one of them, they all drop out after 2nd year when they discover it’s a lot harder than they thought, and it requires actual effort that will cause them to lose valuable comics reading time.
But mostly I’m irritated at otaku because I am in contact with so many of them (involuntarily). Maybe sometime when I work up another fit of righteous anger, I’ll tell you another story about that otaku who got kicked out of school, when he tried to follow me along when I was heading out for a date, all the while blathering about Japanese attitudes towards kiddie porn, right in front of my girlfriend!

::Ignoring Chas.E, as he is the biggest Otaku in the ‘scary obsessive’ sense of the word in this thread::

Pyrrho - yeah, there IS something mildly disturbing about Maetel, but you can’t deny that she’s very pretty, as all Matsumoto women are.

Chas.E- thanks for clarifying. It’s good to know that you were actually trying to insult me, and that I’m not just getting sensitive in my old age.

So… coming in here and saying that “in my experience, most anime fans aren’t like that” is pushing my fandom in your face? I have to wonder what you would have considered an appropriate response… It seems obvious to me that my experiences with anime fans and your experiences with anime fans have been vastly different. Rather than accept my experiences as evidence that maybe not all (or even most) anime fans are as bad as the ones you’ve known personally, you seem to take my statements as confirmation that I am somehow in “denial”.

And I’m still wondering what evidence you have to suggest that any of the anime fans who responded to this thread are in any way not normal. Look, you have my sympathies for the otaku you went to school with, but don’t you think that it’s just a teensy bit of an overgeneralization to assert that every person who likes anime must be some kind of deve? And don’t you think it’s just a little bit insulting to the anime fans in this thread to equate us all with the nitwits and perverts in your story?

Chas. E, if you have encountered these anime fans that bother you so much primarily in the Japanese studies classes at your university, then there is a serious logical flaw in your conclusion.

All you can really conclude from Japanese classes filled with fanatical anime fans is that fanatical anime fans are more likely to sign up for these classes than those with a more healthy perspective. You’ve overgeneralized from a relatively small group–those you encounter at the university–to a much larger, much more diverse group. Your sample is flawed.

As for the idiot who used Japanese porn to teach elementary school, well, he’s a moron. The fact that it was Japanese comics isn’t the problem; the problem is that it was porn. If it had been American porn comics, it would still have been as bad. Would you still have a problem with using comics to teach a lesson in Japanese if they hadn’t been hentai?

I am an elementary school teacher, and I use comics in my teaching sometimes. The problem in your example wasn’t using comics as a teaching tool, the problem was using porn as a teaching tool. Comics can be an excellent tool for students who are visual learners. Comics are, essentially, picture story books for older readers.

There’s a big difference between a healthy fascination with a particular artform–in this case anime–and fanatacism. You may deem that artform as being unworthy of such intense scrutiny, but that does not make all, or even most of the people who choose to study it worthy of your scorn. I don’t understand the obsession some people have with anime either, but my not understanding it doesn’t mean that I think any less of such people.

Geez, someone start a PIT thread already. I have the feeling we’re alll just repressing our true feelings here. :smiley:

~erl, who watched Akira three times and fell asleep during two of the viewings

I know a kid that watches DragonBall-Z. The cartoon has convinced him that either there is an extra planet in our solar system, or that Pluto is not a planet. I can’t remember which though.

And then there are the people such as our very own Hamish who study Japanese culture in order to appreciate animé, as opposed to vice versa.

And Chas? You really have some issues to work out.

Oh, hell, there’s no reason that he can’t believe both. :smiley: Does he also believe that Piccolo, at one point, destroyed the moon?

And, Saitou, of course there’s Hiten Mitsurugi Ryu. But, you know, there’s that whole “only one guy per generation can know it” deal still going on. And that one guy, I’m guessing, is probably in Japan somewhere. And using a reverse-blade sword.

And, ftr, I don’t care if Chas, or anybody else, calls me an otaku and more than I care if they call me a nerd or a geek. Or a dumb jap, for that matter. I mean, hell, if somebody wants to judge/condemn me for one my interests or any one aspect of my personality, then I say that that says more about them than it does me. And what it says, well, it ain’t good.

Godzilla!

If you can’t tell by my name I like anime.
I am otaku in every essence of the word (durogitory or otherwise)
I like the silly antics of The sailor senshi, Washuu, & the ping pong club.
I also love the Animation in the Movies Vampire Hunter D, Akira,& Fist of the North Star.
Do I think that they are a window into Japanese culture?
Hell nah, However I am Learning Japanese so I can watch My copy Of Princess Mononoke that I got off of ebay.
I would rather watch Subs than dubs.
I like Manga, The silly Girly Manga too.
:holds Head High:
I AM NOT ASHAMED!!!
Does this make me a bad person?
No.
Does it make me really geeky?
Yes.
There I’ve said my peace, so let the insults fly, I’ve been called worse things in my life.

The main thing that concerns me is the dangerous head start the Japanese have in giant robot technology.

[General Turgidson]
Gentlemen, we must not allow a mecha gap!
[/General Turgidson]

Gamera is NOT a tortoise!!:mad: He’s a TURTLE!

I refer you to MST3K:

Gamera is really neat!
He is full of TURTLE meat!
We believe in Ga-mer-aaaaaa!

[sup][Tom Servo]You take everything good, and (sob!) you RIP my heart out![/Tom Servo][/sup]

So because I like a couple of shows from overseas and want to talk about them, that makes me comparable to some nut who likes to show porn to twelve-year-olds? I don’t care if this isn’t the pit - fuck you, too, Buckminster. You’ve got bigger issues than misdirected academics, and just because you hate it, it doesn’t mean animation, American, Japanese, or whatever, isn’t art.

Now, for the nice people who responded to this misplaced rant, let me refer you to this thread from my favorite board (yes, ahead of this one):

You watch too much anime when…

#6, you have some reasonable arguments and I’ll try to address them.

I am not arguing solely from the basis of the students I encountered in my university classes, I encounter otaku everywhere I go in Japanese-speaking circles, they pester me endlessly since I have the one thing they can never hope to achieve: Japanese language fluency. If anything, I tended to find the LESS fanatical types in my student circles, I avoid the really intense otaku groups, conventions, etc. where you’ll find high concentrations of the really outrageous nutballs. But I have found that even the less fanatical people are still nutballs, they’re all fanatical to some insane degree or other.

Secondly, I don’t have a general problem with people using comics for instruction, and generally I agree with the use of multisensory input for learning environments. However, Japanese language is an entirely different story. I could give (and have in the past) given lengthy explanations of why manga/anime are extremely unsuitable for Japanese lang studies, but I think I can summarize. Spoken and written Japanese are entirely different in nature. Representing speech patterns in text requires some unconventional techniques that are never used in normal written texts, and will lead students to incorrect conclusions about both the spoken and written forms. Anime, which does not use ANY written forms, tends to use exaggerated accents and unusual voices which are confounding to comprehension. Both anime and manga use a variety of levels of politeness (keigo) which is one unique feature of Japanese not found in English, without proper formal studies the average otaku will use these forms of language inappropriately. In short, there is a huge amount of background material, both cultural and linguistic, that the authors assume the reader knows, and blundering through this material will only lead to incorrect assumptions.
I will give a classic example of cultural difficulties in comic comprehension, stripping away the linguistic issues entirely.
In my 4th year studies, near the end of a unit on women’s rights in Japan, the teacher gave us a small 4panel comic that was seen in the Asahi Shimbun. The subject was fuufubessei, which means “married couples where the women keeps her maiden name.” The scene takes place in a bar. The bartender asks two customers “hey, what do you think of fuufubessei?” One man, we can tell he’s a lower class laborer from his speech patterns and that he’s dressed in workmen’s clothing, he says “I LOVE it!!” and the other man dressed in a suit and tie is shocked. As the workman departs, the bartender says to the businessman “he’s a stonemason.” The final panel shows two tombs in a graveyard.
Now what the HELL was so funny about that? First of all, fuufubessei is a huge issue with women in Japan, women, particularly businesswomen are fighting for the right to keep their maiden names. Most businesswomen are expected to quit their jobs once they get married, and changing one’s last name is considered a signal that you will soon be leaving the company. Fuufubessei is not legal at this time, although some companies do allow it on an informal basis for their permanent female workers.
From this, you can see that it’s a cultural reversal, businessmen are generally more accepting of women keeping their maiden names than blue-collar workers. But this is not why the comic is funny. To understand the comic, you have to know about the “Family Register” system of registering family geneology with the government, the history of Buddhism and Japanese government, stonemasons and funerary practices.
Japanese funerary practices are based around the Family Register system. Hundreds of years ago, each family was required to register with a buddhist temple, and keep a family tree on record. Usually this was done at a temple where a family had their tomb, where every family member’s ashes were entombed. The Register, and the tomb were always under the father’s lineage. Families that had no male heir to continue the family name would sometimes arrange marriages where the man would adopt the women’s family name. This is all a highly compressed version of about 6 weeks of intensive studies, I’m only hitting the highlights here.
So anyway, why is the comic funny? Because the stonemason is looking forward to making TWO tombs for each family, one under the man’s name, one under the women’s name, and he’d make twice as much money. Which is flat out ridiculous, since the women would still be entombed in the regular family tomb under the man’s name. It took our class about 6 weeks of intense studies of all this stuff before the teacher thought we knew enough background to understand this comic.

So perhaps you can start to see why I think comics are counterproductive to language studies. And I find it even MORE ridiculous when I hear crap like “I’m studying japanese language and culture in order to understand anime!” Perhaps these sorts of otaku should read one of my favorite books, “Lost Japan” by Alex Kerr. He asserts that Japanese people have extremely deep cultural knowledge, it is even encoded in their language, where every single kanji character evokes a huge background of literary and cultural associations going back to ancient China, and every Japanese student goes through years of cultural background training to understand this material intuitively, they study to a level that no westerner could ever understand. He says that Japanese have shallow personalities but a deep culture, while Americans have deep personalities and a shallow culture. This is not a cultural insult, Japanese people place primary importance on group identity and not individuality as Americans do, an individualistic Japanese person is usually described as selfish (wagamama). Japanese people must suppress their individualistic tendencies in order to be part of the deep pool of Japanese culture. For an American to do so would be ridiculous, we have no uniform cultural identity like Japanese do, so we have nothing to align ourselves with except ourselves. We must be individuals or nothing. Americans seeking to associate themselves with the deep culture of Japan by becoming otaku are Orientalists of the worst sort, they have no hopes of becoming a deep personality in a deep culture, they will only end up becoming a fish out of water. Is it any wonder that they are perceived as utter nutcases by both Japanese and Americans?

But Chas, isn’t at all possible that people introduced to Japanese culture through anime may, through their studies, gain a wider and deeper understanding of the culture? Admitedly,they’ll have some misconceptions to drop, but at least they’ll have some motivation to study a beautiful culture.

Your point that comics can’t be used to teach Japanese is probably valid (I don’t know, I can’t speak Japanese, but you sound like you know what you’re talking about :)), but your example isn’t, since I got the joke as soon as you gave the punchline. The rest seemed as unnecessary as giving the history of Punch and Judy and Vaudeville when showing a Three Stooges clip. It gives deeper understanding, sure, but the average reader, or even the author, isn’t thinking with that level of analysis.

I think the main point of contention is that you’re blurring the line between myopic anime freaks (“otaku” in the true Japanese sense of the word), and anime fanciers (self described American “otaku”) who are not obsessive, nor consider themselves experts of Japanese culture because of it. One is harmful to western understanding of Japan, the other can, with further serious study, truly reach an understanding of Japan.

If I have tragically misunderstood or misrepresented Japanese culture, the fault is my own, not due to my passing acquaintance with anime (I couldn’t be called an otaku in any sense of the word), Kirosawa films, Godzilla, etc. Although I will admit that I thought homosexuality was more acceptable in Japan due to Sailor Moon. At least they can have gay characters in a kid’s series.

Chas:

It took your class six weeks to understand that comic?

I understood it just fine from your description.

I’ve read a lot about the deep subtlety and richness of Japanese Culture, and you know what?

It’s bullshit.

It’s Japan’s own special brand of xenophobia that tries to fool itself into thinking it’s culture is so much richer and deeper than anybody else’s. There is rich subtlety wherever you go, and Japan has less than average IMO, and I’m well travelled.

Korea, Thailand, Ireland, hell, even New York and New Orleans present culture every bit as deep if not deeper than the Japanese.

But I guess if it took you guys six weeks to read a comic strip, and not to surprised about the rest of your misconceptions.

It ain’t. In fact, since WWII Japanese culture is nothing but a thinly veiled American capitalist culture.

Yeah right. You understood that the drunken stonemason was deluded that he was going to make twice as much money? Not unless you knew that fuufubessei is illegal and wives are still entombed in their husband’s grave. And menocchio, this comic was in the newspaper, not a comic book and it was intended to make people think about social issues, the comic was published at the height of a public debate over fuufubessei. The comic was not intended to be a gut-laff, but a think piece.

Scylla, your description of your “understanding” of Japanese culture just proves that you haven’t got a clue. Let me know someday if you ever learn what nihonjinron and shimaguni konjou mean. And remember that the history of the US is only about 350 years while asian culture has a 4000+ year history. How far back did your highschool history classes go? 1700? Ever study Classical Greek or Latin? Most Japanese kids know a bit of Classical Japanese (which is almost as different from Modern Japanese as Latin is from English).

Chas.E

Thank you for the clarification. I still think you are generalizing from a flawed sample. Anime fans, like fans of any art form, comprise a spectrum from casual (like me) who may have seen a few anime, to fanatical (those you call otaku). You seem to have encountered primarily those close to the fanatical end of the spectrum. This does not mean that most anime fans are like those that are, as you put it, “in Japanese speaking circles.”

Since Japanese-speaking Americans represent a tiny fraction of the population (well, outside of Hawaii and a few West-Coast Cities), it is reasonable to assume that there are a great many anime fans who like the art form for what it is, without caring to make any kind of study of the culture that produced it.

I am not questioning your personal experience, just your conclusion that most anime fans are “nutballs, and fanatical to some degree,” based on that personal experience. Generalizing about a group based on personal experience with that group is flawed reasoning. Complain about the idiots, sure, but it’s unfair to assume that all fans are idiots.

As for using comics for language instruction. Well, just as you are an expert in Japanese language and culture, I am an expert in reading instruction. Comics can be a very good tool for language instruction, providing that the correct comics are chosen. The simplified story lines and vivid pictures help readers who might struggle with the text to understand the story. They provide motivation for rereading for comprehension. They provide access to the story for visual learners. Of course comics are not going to be a good resource for advanced studies, but we are talking about introductory lessons here.

Green Eggs and Ham and Hop on Pop use some unconventional techniques that are never used in normal written texts, and could lead students to incorrect conclusions about both spoken and written English. But for introductory texts for students new to reading the language, they are fantastic tools.