Sanctimonious assholes unite!

The BBQ Pit
21

Sorry to let you down a little there, Thea Logica, but the truth is, I don’t really have a problem working the holidays, but then again I live alone and don’t have any kids whose faces I’d like to see first thing Christmas morning. Plus the fact that they pay me double time and a half for working the holiday always helps. I do feel, however, that an employer should check to see who is willing to work and at least cut back from full staff somewhat if he is going to stay open.

I only have one real problem with what I’ve read here:

friedo, I work for AT&T, and someone needs to be here 24-7 to keep the phone lines working. I have a good job, the best job I’ve ever had as a matter of fact. They pay me well and I enjoy working here. This is the best job I could find, but I should quit if they don’t give me Christmas off when I want Christmas off? And where do I go from there? You should know it’s not that easy to just up and quit a job and slip into a brand new one. People have bills to pay and families to take care of. Your statement is a bullshit oversimplification of the situation.

22

Um, no. For the second time, I have to question your English skills based on this silly mischaracterization. I think you’re a sanctimonious moralizer (and I never used the word asshole) because:

  1. Your “Laundry List of Signs of the Rending of the American Fabric” is simply wrong. Better read the thread, because I posted the facts about all those things you complained about;
  2. You insist that if people do not spend time with their families at Christmas, they do not spend time with their families at all, a completely baseless extrapolation. Me, I place more value on a year-round effort at strengthening family ties, even at a distance, than I do on a once-a-year mass get-together that for many people is emotionally and financially fatiguing, and for some people worse than that, for no other reason than that it is a tradition.
  3. Please give me an answer for this, since I’ve asked for one already: Given that I do not even believe a deity exists, for what reason would I view church attendance as anything other than a social/recreational activity by people with a common interest? Not “religious belief”; I specifically referred in that thread, and am referring here, to church attendance. (As the late Christian musician Keith Green said, “Going to church doesn’t make you Christian any more than going to McDonald’s makes you a hamburger.”)
  4. I completely disagree that people are abandoning cultural and familial traditions en masse. In fact, I think people are becoming more interested in them. I recently started researching my genealogy. My father, who has never been religious, has recently begun celebrating Hanukkah as a cultural event, menorah, yarmulke and all. I think your perceptions are skewed because you’re irate that people don’t behave the way you think they should on holidays that you value.
23

msrobyn: I never said you should celebrate Christmas because I do.

24

I didn’t say you, specifically, did. Others have suggested that I take Christmas in the spirit that it’s a day to spend with family. I choose not to celebrate Christmas in any form.

Robin

25

Well, between the festering odor of deceased equine and the non-stop thudding noise of heads banging against the wall, the other thread has become a rather dull and unappealing place.

Why do people insist on posting in this thread rather than that one? Well, why did Thea start this thread to start with? She was not interested in making a simple statement about santimonious assholes and inviting like-minded others to join her. If it was comeraderie she wanted, she could have gone to MPSIMS. Thea is the one who started a new thread with essentially the same purpose as the other one–to bitch about how some values-lacking individuals are ruining the holidays for Christians.

26

Since this thread is mostly covering the same ground as the other one, I think I detect a faint whiff of festering equine already.

But - carry on.

27

Nah, it’s just barely starting to get ripe in this one! :wink:

28

Thea, I never said you were an asshole, but since you obviously get off on feeling persecuted, let me give you some more reasons to do so:
You started your thread off by complaining about people coming into the casino on Christmas Eve, asking, “Isn’t this a holy day anymore?” So don’t try to pretend that this had nothing to do with your personal religious beliefs. You went on to claim that these people were being “selfish assholes”, apparently because they wanted to gamble without giving any thought to the fact that you’d be missing your church services. Excuse me, who’s being selfish here? You then made a couple of generalizations regarding “Arabs” that were, to my mind, ignorant bordering on racist, to which you never offered a suitable justification for when I called you on it (check it out, it’s on page 1 of the aforementioned thread). After this, you went on to rant about how people didn’t care about the family or religion anymore (which you seemed to extrapolate from the fact that the casino was full on Christmas Eve) and claimed this was causing our country to go to hell in a handbasket. As I said, I’d like to see some sources on this. What, did your preacher give you this information in a sermon? Did you read it in Time magazine? Do you have any actual proof that people don’t care about these things, and that their apathy is destroying the country? Or is it just another of your beliefs that we’re supposed to swallow without questioning ('cause we wouldn’t want to appear intolerant, right?) Look, if I said that I think atheists are saving this society from going to shit, I’d sure as hell expect to be called on it and give examples.
I don’t have a problem with you being Christian. I’m an atheist; that doesn’t automatically make me anti-religious. The only thing that bothers me is your reasoning skills. I tried to debate with you civilly in the last thread (except when I got pissed off about your Arab comments), and so did most everybody else. But instead of listening to other people’s points, you got all defensive and came over here to start this support group thread, so you could get all the people who think like you together to rebut us, if not through logical argument, then through strength in numbers. I don’t mean to sound vitriolic, but I find this pathetic. It’s the “my dad can beat up your dad” method of retaliation.
Anyway, nice choice of name for your little group. And thanks for naming me in the OP. I might just print it out and frame it.

29

In a word, yes. Assuming, of course, that having Christmas off is more important to you than having a job you like. It sounds to me like you feel your job is more important to you. Fine, then keep the job. Otherwise, get a new job.

30

I’m struggling to take Thea and her minions seriously, but it’s just not working.

Using Thea’s special brand of logic, let me extrapolate this from her posts:

Every last one of us, orphans and children of child molesters in prison alike, are supposed to meet with our families on Christmas Day. If this requires you to blow your savings on a trans-Atlantic flight or escaping from prison, so be it.

So now we’re all together: Sarah, the college dropout and bane of her family’s existence; Aunt Cassie, who is still pissed that her grand-niece is named the name she wanted her granddaughter to be named; Aunt Elaine, who just has a good time no matter what, as long as there are fuzzy navels; Uncle Terry, who has been having an affair behind his handicapped wife’s back for the past ten years and who falls asleep on the recliner; Uncle Butch, who sexually harrasses Sarah until she leaves the room feeling very uncomfortable; Brother Keith, who was thrown out of the house for attacking his sister Sarah in a drug-induced rage, then later arrested for possession of heroin; Step-brother Tony, who’s favorite crack involves the size of Sarah’s forehead (which is fucking normal, okay?); Cousin Jen, who’s husband left her with two children to raise and no job, and who apparently lied about her son having leukemia for attention, since he no longer has it and never recieved any medical care; Cousin Gene, who attacked step-brother Tony is a weird fit of rage at a Christmas party five years ago; Uncle Johnny, who for a fact sexually molested all the Aunts, including Sarah’s mom, when they were under the age of ten; Johnny Jr, who sits in the corner and rolls his eyes at everything everyone says; and finally, senile Uncle Andy who drools on himself and hums the Star-Spangled Banner incessantly.

We all sit in the living room, around the fireplace. We eat baked ham and turkey with stuffing, and lots and lots of fruitcake. Uncle Johnny “bounces” little Brianna on his lap while we all sing a round of “Jingle Bells.” Aunt Elaine moves on to Mai-Tai’s when the fuzzy navels run out. After dinner, we go a-caroling around the neighborhood while Uncle Andy and Uncle Terry sleep in the house. When we return, the house is burned down and the Unc’s are dead, but luckily the tree with the presents is still standing. We all open our gifts, which include nary a sweater from Ame’s in the wrong size or sexy underwear from “Santa.” Everyone is overjoyed, even Sarah who got another sweatshirt with an embroidered, puffy painted owl on it from Aunt Cassie. We sing a blazing rendition of “Silent Night” before setting up TV in the back yard and watching “It’s A Wonderful Life.” Finally, we partake in a huge group hug before realizing that Aunt Elaine is passed out in a tree.

Because of this family get-together, no one has any unwanted pregnancies, no one does drugs, no one beats their children, no one goes crazy and blows up a school, and date rape statistics significantly decrease!

That’s my family, Thea. You’re welcome to come to Baltimore and spend the holiday with them, if you think it will help with our nation’s decaying values, but I’m going gambling. Suckeeeeer!

31

Nacho4Sara, after reading a few of your posts, I think I’m starting to develop a crush.
But then, seeing as how your description of your family is uncannily close to mine, maybe I should watch it - we might actually be related.

32

Sarah, your family is just like that because your great-great-grandfather went gambling on Christmas day once.

Sorry, that was incredibly catty but this whole thread, like the other one, is an exercise in complete futility. No one is changing their religious beliefs and essentially, that is what is at the crux of this whole thing.

Although, I do applaud Nocturne for reading something and taking time to think about it before posting–even while she still retains her own beliefs about the situation.

33

Yeah I thought the content of both threads, for the most part, fell in the lame spectrum. Does wonders for my insomnia though.

And Sarah, WTG. :wink:

34

Somehow dressing up sanctimony as a virtue strikes me as ironic.

This topic has been flogged to death, stuffed, mounted and now we’re dusting it. But what the heck…

The OP attempts a defiant spin on a debatable viewpoint. The derisive label draws a line between “us and them”, and tries to garner a certain martyr’s legitimacy in the process.

My opinion? Sanctimony is ugly, and the viewpoint behind the OP is arrogant. Piety is one of the most individual and personal characteristics–and one of the most potent. It does not depend on consensus, support or official recognition from the outside. The idea that the world must validate one’s piety is unrealistic at best, and arrogant at all times.

Do you know a devout Muslim who kneels and prays several times during the day? I do. He doesn’t demand special concessions, etc. His faith is important to him, so he times his breaks to include prayer. Piety is a central force in his life, and work is just another circumstance.

Frankly, I prefer his approach, and that of other devout people who quietly live their faith. Making a noisy, judgmental brouhaha over how other people live and worship is ugly.

It’s also unChristian.

Honest work isn’t a bar against piety. Demanding special recognition from society as a whole degrades the essence of what you’re espousing, Thea. Since you proudly label yourself sanctimonious, I’ll grant it to you. I don’t call people assholes, so you’re on your own on that one.

It’s stuff like this that makes the statement “Jesus wept” so apt.

Veb

35

What friedo said. The thing is, some jobs, by their nature, need people to work them 24/7. If you want certain holidays off, you don’t work those jobs. Gaming (gambling) is one of the jobs where you can reasonably expect to work odd hours, and holidays. If you want religious holidays off, you work for a company that will close down for such days. I’m not sure where Thea works, but if it’s in Las Vegas or Nevada in general, I know that there are plenty of Mormon-owned businesses that DO close on Christian holidays.

And yeah, I’ve worked on days that I, personally, would have preferred to have off, like my daughter’s birthday. So has my husband. This is just the nature of working this sort of job (my husband is in radar maintenance and repair, and I used to work in a convenience store and in a movie theater). Sometimes this is the only sort of job you can find…but you know, going in, that it’s gonna be like this.

36

For all of you “places should close at Christmas” folks, here’s a little holiday scenario for you:

Your whole family is gathered at your house for a Rockwellian Christmas. The stockings are hung by the chimney with care, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Anyway, time comes for the dinner and while Dad is carving that beautiful turkey, his hand slips and he cuts off his thumb!

Everyone panics and someone picks up the phone to call an ambulance. BZZZZZ! Sorry! All of the 911 operators are at home with their families like they should be.

So you decide that it will be okay to drive. You run outside and get in the car. You sputter to a gas station to get fuel because someone forgot to fill up the tank yesterday. BZZZZZ! Sorry! No one is there because they are home with their families where they should be.

You try to hail a cab. BZZZZZ! Sorry, all the cab drivers are at home with their families like they should be.

So you figure it’s only a few miles so you trudge through the snow to St. Joseph’s emergency room and you lead Dad up to the wreath-covered ER doors. BZZZZZ! Sorry! All the doctors and nurses are at home with their families like they should be.

So you turn around and walk back home, planning to call and reach your family physician and hoping Dad’s thumb will still be reattachable when you finally get him to a doctor. But, you forgot your house keys so you are locked out. You go to the neighbor’s house to call the doctor but the phone number is a new one. You call Directory Assistance. BZZZZZ! Sorry! All the operators are spending Christmas with their families like they’re supposed to.

So, you try call a locksmith so you can get back in your house to get the number. BZZZZZ! All the locksmiths are closed so they can be at home with their families like they should be.

Is that enough for you? Should I go on? I think you get the point.

And I don’t want to hear anyone say, “Well, sure, places like hospitals have to be open and doctors knew this was a risk when they became doctors.” Know why? If you are all fired up about the fact that Christmas time is a time for everyone to be with family and that family is the most important thing, how dare you insist that a doctor’s family or an ambulance driver’s family or a cab driver’s family is any less important than yours.

If your business “should” be closed, then so should theirs. I realize they are not “optional” people to have around but if you want to insist that everyone play by Christian rules, then there are some things you are just going to have to live with. You don’t have to have a job where you work on Christmas. Get a government job.

So suck it up, be happy that the majority of businesses are closed on your holiday and quitcherbitchin’!

And for the love of all that is decent, please stop spewing this “the moral fiber of society is tearing apart–it won’t last much longer at this rate” bullshit. People have been spouting that off for at least a couple thousand years now–it’s getting really old.

37

Sigh. I keep on getting sucked back into this moldy topic.

I am not one of the “everyone should be home for Christmas” crowd, but I can ask you, does it all have to be black or white issue? Can’t there be degrees? I remember on the other thread, the term “life sustaining” was brought up several times as a criteria for working on Christmas. My job is life-sustaining, so I work. I don’t think K-Mart is a life-sustaining service, however.

Earlier in this thread evilbeth wrote:

I can understand why this is annoying. But the thing is, the stores are closed for EVERYONE - it isn’t like pagans are singled out and are the only ones that aren’t able to shop. The Christian who forgets milk and bread on Christmas can’t get it either. And it isn’t like Christmas is a secret that comes unexpectedly, therefore no one can be expected to plan ahead accordingly.

I am also annoyed that most businesses are closed in the middle of the night, because that is when I am out and about. So I have to plan ahead. I haven’t been to my favorite pottery supply place in AGES, because they are closed on my days off (Sun/Mon) and it’s a bitch to get there on any of my work days. It’s just my tough luck that they didn’t work their schedule around mine. I can bitch about it if I want to, but it isn’t going to change anything.
If a business wants to close for Christmas, they’re going to close. If the owner and employees all want to be home for Christmas with their families, they will do it. And all you can do is work your schedule around it. The alternative is to expect people that WANT to be home with their families instead keep their establishment open for you. And that is about as absurd as me expecting my favorite pottery place stay open till 3 am to cater to me. It ain’t going to happen. You can still complain about how it is a “problem” for you, though.

The whole “should employers let their employees off on Christmas” has been covered ad nauseum in the other thread. Many of us (like me) think it is an employee morale issue. And it’s up to the employer to try to decide the pros and cons between keeping the business open, or closed. They have to decide if it’s worth sucking some of the morale out of their employees, (if indeed many of them WANT to be home for Christmas.)

38

Maybe I wasn’t clear.

What I am trying to point out to you (and everyone) is that there is a reason everything is not closed and that you should be grateful that most places are closed because they don’t have to be.

Think glass half-full rather than glass half-empty. Enjoy the perk that having a large number of Christian people in this nation has bought for you.

I also am awake during the night and instead of bitching and complaining and decrying the state of American moral fiber for places being closed, I gladly patronize those establishments that allow me to do business with them at my convenience.

Would it be nice if more places were not closed when it is convenient for me? Hell yes. Am I questioning the motives and ethics of the places that choose not to? Hell no.

I, as a rational, thinking individual, realize that not everyone is a night person and not everyone wants to keep a shop open 24/7. I just wish the “close-everything-that-isn’t-life-sustaining” people would extend the same fucking courtesy to those individuals who do not believe in the importance of Christmas day as they do.

AS for the “can’t there be degrees?” comment–look around! There are degrees. In my town, there was not a restaurant open on Christmas day and this is a big restaurant town. No liquor stores were open. Not a single dry cleaners. Do you see? It isn’t black and white. I am not saying that all businesses should be open. What I am saying is that you have no right to demand or even request that businesses close because of your beliefs.

Look, I don’t have need for these places to be open because on Christmas day, I’m with my family. But far be it from me to decide for other people what they have to do or can’t do on a day that for them may be just like every other Monday.

For me, it is not a question of people having to work or people not being able to get stuff, it is a question of being completely ungrateful that the laws, customs and mores of a society do conform to your beliefs for the most part. It is an insult to those of us not of your faith to expect any more than is already done.

39

Yes, this is fine. I am not sure how many on this thread actually expect that everything be closed, though. Hence the discussion of “life sustaining” jobs.

Fine, once again. My basic premise has been that employee morale goes down when people who are in non-life-sustaining jobs are still expected to work on Christmas anyway, even though they really want to be home with their families. We have covered this extensively already on the other thread, though.

I don’t speak for everyone, (obviously) but who cares what everyone else does on Christmas? Who is asking you to do anything on Christmas? Well, not me, anyway! If you want to have a crochet party on that day, none of my business. All I care about is that employers keep in mind that many of their staff want to be home for the holidays, and perhaps it would be better for morale if they were able to not work that day.

I realize that I am not one of the people who every made any statements about what everyone should do on Christmas. But as far as I’m concerned, if a store has staff that all WANT to work Christmas, they should be open! Everyone’s happy! They WANT to be there, working! The problem arises when the staff does not want to be working in the store on Christmas, but are expected to anyway. The employee morale issue, once again.

I can agree with a lot of that. I think the thing that has bothered me is that people used to be able to count on getting off certain holidays, and that is not being honored anymore. I am speaking for the worker of the “dead-end” job here, since they seem to be most affected. Many people want to have a few holidays off a year, I hate to see that taken away from them. The employee morale issue, once again.

It’s not a specific religion issue, IMO. A lot of non-Christians look forward to spending Christmas with their families. I don’t like the idea that some people are getting less and less holiday time a year. That’s the bottom line for me, anyway.

Sigh. I rambled on about this already in the other thread. I guess I’m just killing time here with it too. (Downloading from Napster is a real time stealer!)

40

Well, you know what really chaps my ass? Not so much Xmas as LABOR DAY. I mean, what the fuck? Isn’t that supposed to be a day when laborers and workers get a rest? And we’re working…it’s just so strange.