Asking her to put out her cigarette may or may not have been within his lawful authority. What it was, regardless of that, was a polite request.
Bland could have chosen to be civil about it and put out her cigarette out of common courtesy to another human being. Instead, she decided that was the hill she wanted to die on.
I’m not saying the officer was necessarily justified in escalating after that either - it appears he violated department policy if not necessarily the law. But once again, this is yet another example of why just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.
He can certainly ASK her to put out her cigarette.
Near as I can tell she is under no obligation to do so.
But this exchange seems to escalate the whole situation and no one is better off because of it.
So maybe the officer would not be under investiagation and the woman would be alive if he didn’t tell her to put out her smoke.
Your tolerance for cigarettes may be different than mine but in my view the police officer was wrong to ask and it lead to someone dying. A high price to pay for (legally) smoking.
We’ve gone over this. She had the right to not stop smoking and expect competent law enforcement too. He arrested her for that. I hope you don’t get stranded on a hill with a lot of adrenaline sometime.
And just because you have the right to do something doesn’t mean it’s a good idea to do that something. I have the right to walk up to a leather-clad Hells Angel and tell him he looks gay. Doing so will likely result in me losing several teeth.
In your opinion, was it a good idea for Bland to not put out her cigarette?
Sec. 38.03. RESISTING ARREST, SEARCH, OR TRANSPORTATION. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally prevents or obstructs a person he knows is a peace officer or a person acting in a peace officer’s presence and at his direction from effecting an arrest, search, or transportation of the actor or another by using force against the peace officer or another.
(b) It is no defense to prosecution under this section that the arrest or search was unlawful.
A legal eagle may be needed but as I understand it you can ignore instructions from the police if they are improper. For instance the police cannot order you to punch your friend in the face.
That said it is a difficult uphill battle to claim the instructions of a police officer were wrong. Police are given a lot of leeway in pursuit of their job and justifiably so. They have a difficult job and if they tell you to stand back you should stand back rather than arguing about your right to not stand back.
In short you can challenge the law and may have a good chance of success but it will be a long, expensive slog.
Here’s are opinions from an interview Jim Harrington, director of the Texas Civil Rights Project. Clearly just one side of legal opinion, and the side that’s most likely to defend civil rights, but it’s from a TX lawer, about TX law, and presumably within his domain of expertise. The main points, as I see it:
[ul]
[li] Bland did not have to comply with the request to extinguish her cigarette.[/li][li] The cop is required to give the reason when asking her to get out of the car. (Not probable cause, just a reason.)[/li][li] Bland can refuse to talk other than to identify herself. (Sadly for her, she doesn’t stick to her promise.)[/li][li] The cop can’t legally yank her out of the car, unless she’s presenting a danger.[/li][li] The cop is obliged to state why she’s under arrest.[/li][li] Bland has the right to record it[/li][li] The cop uses excessive force when he threatens her with the taser[/li][/ul]
I’m going to take these as givens, until someone provides a counterargument or cites an authoritative legal opinion to the contrary.
However, the opinion above does NOT answer the question about whether Bland was legally entitled to ignore the officer’s demand that she exit the vehicle. My wild guess as a layman is that even though his order wasn’t in compliance of TX law, she was still compelled. However, the law quoted way above does say “a LAWFUL order” and if he didn’t meet TX law requirements, was it indeed lawful?
(Regardless, it was idiotic of her to resist, IMHO. On the other hand, I can understand why she might be afraid. But I think it was anger ruling her actions, not fear. Pure speculation on my part, and not particularly significant.)
Nor was she having any of the officer’s illegal actions. She was being an idiot, but up to the point she refused to exit the car, all her actions were legal. The cop’s were not, and he’s the one who’s supposed to be trained to handle the situation. He deserves the crap that’s landing on him, and other cops should heed this as a warning.
Yeah, pretty straightforward if you’re not making any attempt to be unbiased. Here’s mine, and I am trying to be unbiased:
[ul]
[li]Bad driver commits a minor offense[/li][li]Police officer pulls said bad driver over[/li][li]Police officer decides to issue a warning citation[/li][li]Bad driver begins mouthing off[/li][li]Police officer requests she put out her cig, and she (legally) refuses[/li][li]Police officer gets pissed off[/li][li]Police officer orders her out of the car, without giving a reason as he’s legally required to do, and without having any ostensible reason other than that he’s pissed off[/li][li]Bad driver refuses[/li][li]Four times[/li][li]Police officer threatens to Taze her (clearly inappropriate)[/li][li]Bad driver decides to get out of the car (possibly to avoid being tased in the head, which could be lethal!)[/li][li]Police officer decides that bad driver needs to be cuffed while he decides how further to proceed[/li][li]Bad driver resists cuffing[/li][li]Police officer drags driver outside camera range (possibly for good reason; we don’t really know)[/li][li]Bad driver is then arrested, taken to jail, and two days later is found dead in her cell[/li][/ul]Seems pretty straightforward to me. The cop escalated for petty reasons. He had no business
As a request it was reasonable under the circumstances to decline. The encounter was over.
But then not a good idea to verbally protest his order to get out of the car. Then when he went physical, she was in sheer disbelief and he got what he wanted: an angry black woman he could throw around.
I’d love to know what would’ve happened had she got out and stood there. I think he knew he was in trouble for his judgement and was trying to create a diversion from that, and he did.
I think you’re giving the cop too much credit. I don’t think he planned to pull this lady over and hassle her. No, her attitude pissed him off, and he unprofessionally let it get to him and he fouled up.
Oh hell no! Count me in.
It’s not clear who’s baiting who. A clear case of mutual escalation. They both started off civilly, but both were apparently just waiting to be triggered. Probably a bad day for both of them, or else they’re just easily annoyed in general.
But as I understand it, only on refusal to sign a notice to appear.
It wasn’t phrased as an order. The order to get out of the car was clearly an order, though, and my guess is that even if the cop didn’t follow all the laws, the driver should still be compelled. After all, we can’t have “sea lawyers” impeding every arrest by citing some (possibly whacky) legal loophole; it’s not practical. But I admit I’m guessing here. The law states “LAWFUL order”, raising the question of whether one that doesn’t follow all the requirements is still lawful. (I’m very interested to hear your opinion on this, Bricker.)
Except it didn’t happen like that. He tells her to get out of the car, and then only after she asks if she’s under arrest, and he threatens to tase her, does he say she is under arrest. Does that matter?
According to the expert cited above, TX law does require it.
Granted, and thanks. But does that apply to the order to get out of the vehicle?
I don’t think your conclusion follows. Even if he is convicted of felony assault, that did not lead directly to her death. While it’s true that if he hadn’t, she wouldn’t have died in that cell, but I do not believe it makes him criminally culpable. I remember my mom (a lawyer) explaining how this worked in MI, long ago, and I don’t recall the names of the legal principles, but if death (during a felony) is a reasonably predictable possible outcome, then it’s considered murder. For example, if I rob a bank and threaten you with a fake pistol and you have a heart attack, I’m hosed. But I don’t think a death in a jail cell is reasonably predictable. (Again, I’d appreciate Bricker stating this more accurately.)
This is a case of both sides being idiotic. And I do believe Bland was wrong both by law and by common sense to refuse to get out of the car when ordered. Seriously, what advice would you give? But I agree she didn’t deserve to be arrested; the order to get out of the car should never have happened, and the cop is the pro here and the one who’s supposed to be in control of the situation. He failed completely.
Really? She seemed like a total bitch to me, pretty much out of control once things went pear-shaped. I’m not saying the cop didn’t deserve it, but that doesn’t make her any exemplar of behavior, not by a long shot!
OK, but was it a lawful order just because he says it is?
Frankly, one should comply anyway, unless one wants to escalate the situation. But legally? I really don’t know.
I know your heart’s in the right place but
How bad a driver was she really?
Doesn’t he then deserve the epithet “Bad Police Officer”?
It would be nice to read this with her described as “taxpayer and citizen” and him as the above.
[QUOTE=drad dog]
I’d love to know what would’ve happened had she got out and stood there. I think he knew he was in trouble for his judgement and was trying to create a diversion from that, and he did.
[/QUOTE]
We would never have heard anything about it, of course, since it would have been like the thousands of other traffic stops that happen every day and don’t degenerate into total cluster fucks. She’d have gotten out of the car, he’s have talked to her, maybe given her a ticket instead of a warning, done his best to ensure she knew who was the boss and then everyone would have driven away. At several points during this whole thing it could have gone down that way. She could have been polite and friendly or at least not hostile to the cop initially. She could have put out her cigarette when he requested it. She could have gotten out of the car when he ordered her to. He could not have been such a dick and been in more control of himself from the get go, especially after she started to get annoying. As others have said, it’s his job to handle annoying people in potentially explosive situations, and if he can’t do that properly then he probably shouldn’t be out on the streets with a gun and a badge.
