OK, thanks for your diligence!
Then I don’t need to debate the cuts, if you concede the kick is sufficient.
And what if the cop tells you to fellate him? Do you suck his dick and then fight it later on in court?
The arraignment is the proceeding at which an individual is informed of the charges against him. State laws vary, but as a general rule a person in custody following an arrest must be arraigned within 72 hours. That’s an outside limit – the vast majority are much less.
The fucked up thing is that this recently happened. If one of these women had had the means to fight back, would they have been wrong for resisting an officer? Is self-defense against a rapist forbidden when that rapist is in uniform?
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/cafe/sandra-bland-video-legal-but-not-good-policing
A very intelligent opinion piece by a former police officer now professor, as brought to us by our good friends at Talking Points Memo.
Prof. Stoughton (who I like, and who has a very helpful twitter account) makes two mistakes there, I think.
First, his categorical declaration that Mimms applies is overconfident. We know there is an outside limit on how long an officer can prolong the stop, and it’s not at all clear that once all the tasks of the stop have been or reasonably should have been accomplished that an officer may nevertheless do a Mimms removal.
Second, he states that the motivation for the Mimms removal is irrelevant. That’s not true either. He’s correct that officers do not need to articulate any safety concerns or any other reason in each case, but it does not follow that there is no motivation that would be unconstitutional. If, as he suggests was possible, the decision was made because of Bland’s protected conduct, then the removal would be unconstitutional (though the officer may have qualified immunity in Texas).
Otherwise a good analysis, IMO.
Do you really not understand the difference between getting out of your car - something a cop might well be allowed to order you to do, and in fact can under some circumstances - and forcing you to perform a sex act, something he would never be allowed to do?
Many people who claim to be “standing up for their rights” are doing no such thing. And if you’re an activist, and choose to break the law because you believe the law to be wrong, you have a duty to accept your legal punishment.
Still, if Ms Bland had made such an offer, it would almost certainly have gone a long way to relieve a tense situation. May we suggest that you make such an offer if you have any encounter with authorities, and report back to us on the results?
[QUOTE=monstro]
If Rosa Parks had tried to do what she did today, the cop would have tasered her. People would have used the fact that she was tasered as proof that she was a dangerous criminal. Because, after all, cops don’t taser innocent middle-aged ladies. They only taser thugs. Ergo, Rosa Parks was a thug.
[/QUOTE]
Horse. Shit. Oh well, I tried. But somehow I knew this wasn’t really one of those ‘can we just talk like civilized people and without heat’ type moments.
If Rosa Parks tried to do what she did today no one would bat an eye (i.e. if some white guy had asked her to give up his seat everyone on the bus would have been looking at this dude as if he were a nut), and if someone tried to make a big deal about it then more than one person on that bus would have gotten ticked off. If the cops had been called in they would have tasered the idiot who tried to make her move.
But let’s say that she did something else to bring her to the attention of the cops. If she acted the way she did in her historical encounter, then there is zero chance the cops would taser her today…the cops back then didn’t pull out the billy clubs and start smacking her around, so why would cops today do that?? She was polite, and respectful and simply adamant in her will and in the unfairness of the situation. She didn’t resist or kick or scream at the cops but went with them, head held high.
And WHY did the NAACP pick her case to push and not Colvin? Do you know? She didn’t start off with powerful friends. This all boggles your mind because either you refuse to see my point (which is my guess) or you actually don’t know any of the details about either woman…which if true is really, really sad. You want to push this theme that if Rosa Parks did what she did today that the cops would be more brutal than the actual cops were in the midst of all the hatred and tension in the pre-Civil Rights SOUTH.
It was HOW she did it that matters. And it wasn’t as trivial as a traffic ticket, since at the time that ridiculous rule that blacks had to sit at the back of the bus was in effect and that if a white person wanted the seat in the back because all others were taken they could just insist that a black person give it up. That’s a travesty and unfair. A traffic ticket is a freaking traffic ticket…anyone could get one for illegal lane change or failure to signal, let along driving through a stop sigh depending on whether or not a cop sees them and has a bug up his ass. Black people aren’t the only ones to get such tickets, while black people WERE the ones being asked to sit at the back of the bus and have to give up their seats to whites if they wanted them. But the real point here is in the different ways these ladies fought the police…and of course, the very different outcome they got for doing so.
She garnered attention because she was an older lady, she kept her cool and her temper, she did not resist arrest, and it drew attention to the situation in a way that the public probably hadn’t thought about before. Here was what was basically a nice older lady, respectful and soft spoken being asked, after a hard days work with hurting feet (something many working class white folks could identify with), to give up her seat to some white guy for no other reason than that she was black and he was white. Colvin was a young black girl, she was angry and allowed her temper to explode in the situation (just like many of you think is right and good), she resisted the police (luckily she wasn’t hurt or killed, which could have certainly happened back then in the South…much more than today) and so she was thrown in jail. Her case was pretty much forgotten, while Parks because a national hero and inspiration.
The same chance as me…though, of course, she was initially going to be given a warning (which I can tell you from my own experience NEVER happens to me…I always get the ticket. Always). She would not have been changing policy…WHAT policy? It was going to be a warning. At most it would have been a ticket. She would have had to pay it. Maybe, if she was really nice and the judge wasn’t feeling particularly pissed off she’d have gotten out of it in court, or maybe the police officer wouldn’t have shown up and she’d have gotten out of it. Instead, she allowed her own temper to get the better of her, and coupled with this asshole of a police officer and HIS lack of temper control this entire thing spun out of control and now she is dead. And I have serious doubts that this will change anything wrt new or revised existing laws concerning any of this. The only good thing that MIGHT come out of this is perhaps now people are aware of the cost and are aware that if a cop asks you to leave your car he has the right to do so…and even if he’s in the wrong, he could arrest you and you’ll then have to work through the pain of being arrested before things settle out. Sandra’s life wasn’t worth any of that. YMMV of course.
I linked to a clip earlier where an officer WAS yanking a white guy out of his car…after tasing him first of course. So, it’s horseshit that this couldn’t have happened to a white guy. Now, a respectable white guy in a suit? Yeah, maybe not…but then a respectable older black guy in a suit probably wouldn’t have been yanked out either. And this very respectable and handsome older hispanic guy certainly wouldn’t have been, because I’d have gotten out of the car when asked, and probably would have defused the dude being a dick earlier in the encounter and walked away with my ticket and my date in court, since, sadly I wouldn’t have been given the chance at one of those warning thingies…
Not that’s it’s especially relevant to your dispute, but Rosa Parks was 43 at the time.
Perhaps more relevant, it was actually Colvin’s lawsuit that eventually succeeded. Not Parks’s.
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
Not that’s it’s especially relevant to your dispute, but Rosa Parks was 43 at the time.
[/QUOTE]
I’m unsure why you think this is relevant or why it’s different than what I said. 43, especially at the time, was considered ‘older’…and I was well aware of how old she actually was.
I’m aware of this as well. Why is it ‘more relevant’? Which had the greater impact on society? Which had the greater impact on change? Which is, today, more well known? If you asked 100 people on the streets who was the first black woman to stand up to the establishment regarding bus seating arrangements, which do you think most would pick, even though they would be wrong?
I didn’t think it was relevant, that’s why I so indicated. I pointed it out because it is a very common myth that she was a tired old lady. It’s so common that she herself debunked it, explaining that “I was not tired physically or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.”
The suggestion was that Parks has the backing of the NAACP which is why she succeeded. In fact, both Colvin and Parks had lawsuits brought by the NAACP, and Colvin’s lawsuit is what eventually desegregated Alabama buses. Obviously, Parks role on the bus boycott has a larger role in the history of overall desegregation. I didn’t precisely follow your dispute with monstro, but I took that fact as supporting your general point.
[QUOTE=Richard Parker]
I didn’t think it was relevant, that’s why I so indicated. I pointed it out because it is a very common myth that she was a tired old lady. It’s so common that she herself debunked it, explaining that “I was not tired physically or no more tired than I usually was at the end of a working day. I was not old, although some people have an image of me as being old then. I was forty-two. No, the only tired I was, was tired of giving in.”
[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. That’s why I used the term ‘older’ but not ‘old’, but I can see where it might be a confusion. One thing a lot of people don’t know is that she continued to suffer from this for years, losing her job (her husband did as well) over this. 
Local chapters certainly supported both women, but this was really a huge break for the organization and they elevated Parks to national status, giving her the opportunity to speak to large crowds, writing pamphlets to the people about her and the incident. She wasn’t part of any of this before (IIRC, she was a department store worker), nor did she have ‘powerful friends’ before any of this, which was what I was trying to convey in the discussion with monstro. This all happened a good 4 years before I was born, but I still remember my grand folks talking about it and how brave the lady was…and we are talking Arizona in the mid-60s here, not exactly a hot bed of political activism. I actually wrote a paper on her in high school. 
I think enough people are talking about this case that we shouldn’t assume Sandra Bland’s fight was in vain.
Larry Whitmore does an excellent job breaking it down.
If a new law or institutional policy is adopted because of this fiasco, I hope Sandra will be remembered as a hero. She will have helped to improve the system for all of us, just like all the civil rights legends who came before her.
“Well-behaved women seldom make history.” - Laurel Thatcher Ulrich
Ahem.
Wiki, natch.
I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that issue. Firstly, we don’t really know what kinds of things MLK would be doing if he were alive today. But if you think you do, and you know some folks who are doing those things, and you also know some folks calling them “race baiters”, that would add some substance to the discussion. Otherwise, we’re just debating an unsubstantiated hypothetical.
ETA: The term “race baiter”, to me, brings to mind someone like Al Sharpton, but I don’t think (and would hope not) that MLK would be using tactics similar to AS.
Can you think of any civil right leader living today who isn’t branded a “race baiter” by the talking heads on Fox News?
I watch almost zero FoxNews. Maybe Chris Wallace’s show on Sunday mornings once in awhile, but not often enough that I remember any discussions about race.
People get their news analysis from Comedy Central? That explains a lot.