I’m not Catholic, and don’t really have an opinion. I do know that more goes into it than just being a good guy; verified miracles for one.
Should JPII be a saint?
Should the process be expedited (and what is the precedent for this)?
And for those who will come along unable to resist the urge to add that “it’s all a big lie that oppresses people:” please grow up.
I can’t say much about the specific precedents, but JPII did seem to create an express lane. He got Mother Theresa moving toward sainthood pretty fast, for example. I won’t say it’s a big lie, but I will say sometimes I’m suspicious of the way they dig up their miracles.
To elaborate, furt, you spouted off about people saying the Church was oppressing people. I made an ironic reference to it and said I think they hurried up to find a miracle since they wanted to make the famous woman a saint quickly. And guess what? I can back it up:
Or, probably more like it, the JP2 Administration (he may be the Big Cheese but it’s one huge political machine and we all know it) made such a big-deal point out of facilitating the beatification/canonization procedure, specially for the sort of saint that “sent the right message” (take J.M. Escrivá…please!), that it opened a door for things such as this.
But even if the next pontiff goes “fast track” on JP2, the people are out of it if asking for “Santo-Subito”… THAT is not happenning. Most certainly, Venerable Subito; and quite likely, Beato-Molto-Veloce. But probably only Santo-Rapido. Mother T. made it to “Blessed” before the normal waiting time on an “above the zone” promotion, but her next step may take longer than her sponsors expected precisely because of the raised questions. Overenthusiasm sometimes backfires in the “causes”.
(BTW, in Spanish, “santo subito” translates as “Sudden Saint”. What, the game ended 1-1, and they have to go to penalty kicks?)
I predicted that the thread would attract people with nothing better to do than attack relgion in general, even if it was not germane to the topic. The second sentance of your first post is exactly that.
“suspicions” on the integrity or morality of the Catholic church or the beatification process are simply not germane to this discussion. Please note that I am not Catholic; nonetheless, I am capable of accepting catholic premises for purposes of a discussion.
What the hell are you talking about? I didn’t attack religion, and I didn’t even attack Catholicism. I said there is apparently some precedent for moving someone along toward sainthood quickly and offered her as an example. You asked about expediting the process and what the precedent was, so that’s germane. For fuck’s sake. Sounds like you didn’t read your own post OR mine.
I’m not Catholic either, so I have no opinion on whether he should be a saint or not, or how fast it should happen.
:rolleyes: It was neither an attack on religion nor an attack on Catholicism, it was a comment that I think there are politics involved in the process of canonization. Yes, I know, a totally shocking comment that - unfortunately for you - was both related to the subject I addressed and also a minor aside. You started the thread, but you don’t own it. Is there anything else you’d like me to spend too much time explaining?
Santo nunquam nisi or something like that (my Latin has gone to pot).
If, after proper investigation, it is found that he qualifies, then by all means. I just hope that his successor lets the dust settle and gives himself ample time to reflect on the things JP2 did because of the man he was and those he did purely because he was in a position to because he had been elected Pope.
I certainly agree that many remarkable things happened during his papacy. But rules is rules and there’s no-one like the Vatican for sticking to them.
and on top of it there comes a point where those become inextricably linked. There are many things he was in a position to do – or not do – as “the Pope”, but “the man Karol Woytyla was” determined IF he did, and HOW. And on top of that, there is the very real consideration as to if the Church, as an institution, agrees with the faithful as to which of those deeds, either way, are worthy of exalting.
According to Reuters, JPII’s secretary, Archbishop Stanislaw Dziwisz, claims that an unnamed rich American Jew who was dying of a brain tumor met with the Pope in 1998, received Communion, and was miraculously healed. The article mentions other miraculous healings linked to the late Pope as well. To avoid being accused of anti-Catholicism again, I won’t ask any questions about this development.