I think the disconnect here is that Diogenes is thinking of praying as in asking God for something, like praying for someone’s health. I think it can also be meant as ‘hoping for’ with a religious bent, but I admit my first thought is also what Diogenes is thinking: Praying that you’re doing God’s will isn’t merely hoping that you’re doing God’s will, it’s asking God to make his will match up with yours.
Well, to give you the perspective of many religious people, we are asking for God’s influence in all that we do, so that the choices we make are reflective of His will. I realize this is an alien thought to you, but it’s a hope that we can live with God’s grace as an all-encompassing influence that permeates everything–our thoughts and actions. We also recognize that we are imperfect. Our wrong choices are those that are contrary to God’s will, and it is not always obvious to us when we choose the wrong path (though it would have been had we remained open to God’s will).
So, combine that with the fact that we believe that God is completely unconstrained by time and the physical world–e.g., a mom might pray that her son who committed suicide ten years ago had repented while he lay dying, and we accept the fact that God could grant that petition, that he might influence that outcome. When we pray that we are doing God’s will, we are hoping that we were and are open to his word and influence–that the plan we follow is His. And, yes, we pray that even as we’re already “doing.” That very prayer recognizes the fact that we often fail in meeting His expectations.
I went to 16 years of Catholic school–take it from me, this form of prayer is common. It doesn’t mean we want God to consider our way–it is a given that His way is the true one. I would be very surprised if Palin doesn’t hold a similar belief–what you’re suggesting would be alien to her. But, again, we needn’t parse the words too much. This is pretty standard politician-speak, uttered by believers and non-believers alike I’m sure.
That’s a pretty big mantle there – defining what prayer is for every case. No doubt what your saying could be true, but is it necessarily true?
I agree with Diogenes. After I realized this, I vomited violently for 20 minutes. But now I’m back.
She didn’t say “I’m paying for God to show me his will and guide us” or “I hope what we’re doing is God’s will”. She decided she was going to do something, and then prayed (asked) for that thing to be right. The only way to fulfill that prayer is for God to bend his will, if it doesn’t already match, to what she wants.
And as someone who has little to no partisan hangups, I absolutely would be irritated if I heard a prominent democrat say these things.
I mean for fucks sake, can we grow up as a society? Let’s make a decision about something based on the merits, not about whether it’s God’s will or not. Most of them don’t actually believe it when they say this stuff - it’s just that appealing to God is the ultimate case of appeal to authority. Divine will is some powerful stuff.
The people that actually believe they’re doing is God’s will are scarier. What will they think up next and think they have a sacred duty to it?
For fucks sake, these are the people that are running our country. Their decisions affect the lives of millions. And we have them either bullshitting us about it being God’s will (therefore trying to drown out actual discussion of the merits) or they actually believe it, in which case someone on a Mission From God is running some aspect of our lvies.
I would interpret it this was, though really, why pray at all if god supposedly already knows what you are thinking, what you want, and everything else…
Anyway, she’s doing two things. She’s explaining that what she’s doing is because she thinks this is what god wants her to do, and she wants god to forgive her if she’s wrong, and better yet give her some kind of sign to steer her onto the right path if she’s on the wrong one now.
I wonder what would happen if a voice in her head told her to do something opposite? Imagine she wakes up the next days and says, “Oops, I was wrong. God told me to do this other thing. So, Alaska, that’s what we’re gonna do.”
I don’t think that would go over very well.
deleted.
So you’re claiming that Palin’s words indicate an openness to changing her mind if that was God’s will. What do you think Palin would have accepted as God showing her his will, if it differed from hers, WRT the war? I mean, there were plenty of obvious signs that it was a really, really bad idea, but I guess none of those constituted a burning bush or Saul on the road to Damascus moment. Are you seriously claiming that there was any way Palin was going to change her mind about Iraq? It’s disingenuous in the extreme to make such a claim, IMO.
Not exclusively, it isn’t.
You’re praying that you have had the wisdom to have apprehended God’s will properly enough that what you’re doing fits within it.
I’m not the type of person who is really good at prayer, but this is basically my interpretation of what she was talking about. Diogenes, as others have said, prayer is by no means only about petitioning God for what you want. In fact, when I learned about prayer as a child, they made the point of telling us that the things you want are last on the list of what you should be talking to God about when you pray.
Stipulate Diogenes is wrong (I think he is). She’s said and done plenty of stuff that indicate she’s either a wackaloon literalist, or she’s willing to provide wackaloon literalists access to the halls of power.
Daniel
In this case it is. There’s no other way to parse it.
This makes no sense. How can you ask God for the decision you’ve already made to have been the correct one? What if it wasn’t? What exactly are you asking GOD to do?
I’m charitable enough to accept that she was using “pray” as a synonymn for “hope,” and was just too stupid to think about the literal meaning of her words, but semantically, her words can’t literally parse as anything but a request for God to conform his will to her actions.
And it’s not like she expressed any intent to change her actions if they WEREN’T God’s will.
You can parse it exactly the way others have done, and have already explained to you…basically, it’s another way of saying that she is praying they have done the right thing. God doesn’t come right out and TELL you what to do…you have to use your brain to figure out what you think he wants, with maybe some guidance from the Holy Spirit. So, you pray that you are doing that, and generally also that if you aren’t, God will give you some guidance.
I know you aren’t going to admit you are wrong, but you are. “Pray that we are doing God’s will” literally means what it says…that we hope we are doing what God wants. Period. She doesn’t say here that she wants God to DO anything about it, so by those words alone you have no way of knowing whether she means “if we are not doing his will, I want him to change his mind,” or if she meant “if we are not doing his will, I want him to let us know so that we can change our course,” or if she wasn’t asking him for anything at all. You have to infer the rest, and given my understanding of your average Christian’s relationship to God, the second one is the most likely.
She didn’t have to…it’s implied.
But that makes no sense, once you’ve already done it. If you’re not asking God to change anything, then what are you asking for?
But this isn’t about asking for guidance in making a decision, it’s about making the decision first and then retroacticely asking God to make it “his will.”
“Pray” and “hope” do not mean the same thing.
Then why is she praying? If she’s prayingm she’s not hoping she’s done right, she’s asking God to make it right retroactively. If she 's “praying” for actions she’s already taken to have been God’s will, then how is that different than asking God to make it his will? He obviouly can’t change her actions. She’s already acted. She can’t be asking for guidance or advice or a sign. She already did what she wanted to do. So what does she want God to do about it after the fact? If the answer is nothing, then why is she praying?
You’re putting words in her mouth. This is basically fanwanking. She didn’t say any of that, and I don’t believe for a second that she intended to imply it.
Dio, ol’ chum, you’re being entirely reasonable. About the least rational subject in the Universe.
I’m making no such claim. I’m just pointing out that her words, by themselves, are an innocuous, common form of prayer. Whether or not her actions are consistent with such a prayer is another question, but those words are simply not the “Jesus told me to invade Iraq” silliness some like to portray them as.
Diogenes, I already explained it to you, but you seem hellbent on interpreting it as if it were a form of debate instead of a prayer. I have heard countless forms of such a prayer, “God, we pray that we have chosen the correct path.” Really, I’m not lying to you. This was not some kind of unique non sequitur, the result of Palin spouting off some kind of appeal for a change in divine policy.
Christians generally believe that God is not bound by time, so our prayers can be for what we have done, what we are already doing, and what we are about to do. Perhaps I travel in odd circles of people, but I swear to you, this is what we were taught, and I have heard such prayers about a million times. Really and truly. I’m not trying to convince you to believe the same things, just pointing out that you are trying to parse a prayer while ignoring the beliefs that create the context for them. “How can you ask God to influence something that has already happened?” Because he’s God. Quite a bag of tricks he has at his disposal.
No, before hand, you pray that you are going to do make the right decision, afterward, you pray that you have made the right decision.
You are the one putting words in her mouth. I’m not fanwanking, because I’m not a fan, not of the religious stuff, anyway. But people ask God all the time to continue guiding them, and to correct them if they’re wrong. I don’t get how you are parsing this at all.
That He change what you did if it wasn’t?
I mean, if He’s God, after, all, it should be a snap… 
Stupid edit window…
ETA: FWIW, Dio, I think you’re contorting yourself pretty egresiously in order to avoid conceding the teensiest possible point on what pretty much all of us agree is a damning litany of evidence that SP is a RCW. Just let it go. There are better uses for your admittedly large reserves of intellectual energy.
Yes you are. You said:
And I ask you, how would God show Sarah his will? Is that something that you realistically think could ever, ever happen? Do you honestly think that she was open to changing her mind about the military action in Iraq? I think not. So this bullshit about how her prayer shows that she’s open to being shown her wrongness and changing her ways is just that.
But it is “I really hope we’re doing what God wants, and since there’s clearly no way for him to tell me otherwise, I’m just going to assume he’s on my side and do what it is that I want.” Is that pretty close?
Listen, IF Palin is sincere about her religious beliefs, and I never give a politician the benefit of the doubt about sincerety, she’s simply NOT parsing things the same way as you, Dio. Those fundies are trempbling before god hoping they’ll get it right, and fearful of the consequences if they don’t.
I will certainly grant you that she is stupid enough not to understand the specific implications of her prayers, as stated. There’s been plenty of evidence of how stupid she is.
And there is another possibility that, oddly IMO, hasn’t come up yet. Which is that she’s cynically faking her religious fervor in order to pander to the segment of the public who buy into that stuff. And is therefor mouthing words that she doesn’t believe and doesn’t really understand, and doesn’t care about except in the sense that she selects the right buzzwords and puts them in an order that seems, er… devout.