Say it ain't so, Palmeiro!

…oh wait, he already did. He told Congress that he “never used steroids, period.”


So, I guess that 3000th hit is going to have an asterisk.
Can we really trust any records set in this period? Will this be an unfortunate asterisk on sports or will it continue? What do we do? I’d like to see something like this: Get caught once, set all your numbers back to zero and pay you league minimum for one year. Caught again, and you’re gone, and all your statistics disappear. I guess it would make for some arguments like “Yeah, so-and-so’s got the record, but banned player really had it”.

I hate to bring this up again, but…

Baseball “records” should never have asterisks for any reason. The entire concept is stupid. Rafael Palmiero has over 3,000 hits; it is simply an absolute, undeniable fact that the man, as of today, has compiled 3,018 base hits in the major leagues. Barry Bonds might have roided up heavier than Ben Johnson, but he hit 703 home runs, period, end of story. Same with Mark McGwire, but the fact remains that the most homers ever hit in a season was 70, by McGwire, in 1998. You can’t somehow wish those facts away.

It is the nature of baseball statistics that the great majority of baseball records are set when and where the conditions are ideal for that particular feat, and are essentially unbreakable at most other times. Virtually ALL single season pitching records are hopelessly unattainable now, but we don’t put an asterisk next to John Chesbro’s 41-win season. There’s no point try to sort fair from unfair; baseball records are a factual observation of what actually happened, not what should have happened.

Now, as to the real topic.

Palmiero is a scum sucking cheater. I have never been thrilled with the roidheads but I was always of the position that you couldn’t exactly blame someone for doing something that wasn’t really against the rules, as roids were not a few years ago. But now they are, and so now Palmiero is a filthy, cheating bastard, and furthermore he’s a liar and a perjurer. He’s been a loser all his career and now he’s very possibly lost his spot in the Hall of Fame. Good.

(Caveat; supposedly an AA player tested positive for roids after taking Viagra. Palmiero, of course, claims to be a satsfied customer of that particular boner pill. So you never know.)

I’m shocked, SHOCKED, that a man who never hit 40 HRs in his career and suddenly hit 47 twice in his late 30s was found to have used steroids.

OK, let’s stop and think about this for a minute:

  1. He says he has never knowingly put a banned substance in his body.

  2. He was sure to be under increased scrutiny due to his testimony and the accusations Canseco leveled at him.

  3. Knowing this, do you really think that he took up steroids after being put under the microscope, with the absolute certainty that he was going to get caught?

There are two options here (actually three). The first is that he really didn’t know and his trainer gave him some stuff without his knowledge. The second is that he really is that dumb. And the third, which very few of us prefer, is that we need to neb out because it’s none of our damn business one way or the other.

I obviously prefer number three, but all other things being equal I think he was given some bad stuff, and while he is ultimately responsible I think he had no idea. Only a moron would do drugs when everybody is watching to make sure that they’re not doing drugs. If he’s that stupid he might as well invite Bud Selig over to do some smack with him, because that basically how stupid you’d have to be to get caught with 'roids nowadays.

Well, maybe. Except that I’m not so sure things are so black and white – either as to the testing, or as to the drugs themselves. It’s my understanding that not everyone is tested, so he could have been playing the odds, and lost. Or it could be that he took something that he thought, or was told, wouldn’t be caught on the test. Or he could have misjudged, or been misinformed about, dosages or the time element.

He may have been afriad to stop taking as he saw Sosa, Bonds & Giambi all go down hard when they stopped. He rolled the dice and decided I need to get that 3000 hit and the odds are they won’t test me.

I am not defending, just rationalizing. I think he’s an idiot. If he was taking, he should have at least stopped when called before Senate.

True, but you can controvert them with the truth. The most home runs hit in a season is 73 by your aforementioned Mr. Bonds in 2001. Or am I missing something and we are ignoring Bond’s accomplishment for some reason?

It was a mistake, or he was just talking about McGwire back in 1998. RickJay’s knowledge of baseball is second to none here.

Yes they should.

An asterisk indicates “Active player.”


Oh, I’m more than willing to grant that it’s a mistake, and I acknowledge that my comment came off as snarky, even though that wasn’t my intention. I actually do see how you could construct the sentence as you suggest, although the addition of an “at the time” would have made it better. It just struck me as funny that in the middle of a soap box rant there was this fact that even I, not a stats person, knew was wrong.

I’m pissed. I defended Raffy when Canseco’s book came out. I defended him when people said his 3000 hits and 500 homers weren’t enough to get him in the Hall. Short of someone coming out and saying that it was all a mistake and the test was flawed, or that it was a false positive and the secondary sample was clean, I can’t defend him. Before it was “against the rules” I could have made a superficial case on his behalf. Now there is no way to stick up for Raffy with out being a total hypocrite. I like Raffy, and I want to believe him but as they say the proof is in the pudding. Any one want an Orioles #25 T-shirt with some dude’s name on the back? I’m not going to be wearing it anymore.

The way they’re playing right now, i wouldn’t wear any Orioles shirt right now.

It’s fucking depressing.

I was trying to add a third name connected to the pill monkey scandal. Obviously McGwire did once hold the record, though, and uh, that’s what I meant, and, umm, and that’s my story and I’m sticking to it. :slight_smile:

RP’s statements thus far have been comical. “I never used 'roids. But I want to apologize to everyone for testing positive for something I haven’t used. I let you down.” Huh?

The only thing he didn’t claim was that me must have sat or stepped on someone’s discarded 'roid needle, or that Manny Ramirez must have spiked his water last time Boston and Baltimore played. Those excuses would be just as plausible as everything else he is saying.

Raffy at next hearing:
Honest… I ran out of gas. I, I had a flat tire. I didn’t have enough money for cab fare. My tux didn’t come back from the cleaners. An old friend came in from out of town. Someone stole my car. There was an earthquake. A terrible flood. Locusts. IT WASN’T MY FAULT, I SWEAR TO GOD. :smiley:

This does almost assuredly scuttle Palmeiro’s Hall bid, I would think. The Veteran’s Committee will be his only shot, I’d say, since the writers are gonna look at this very harshly.

Do I think this was a case of someone getting busted when he didn’t expect to? Probably. If this were the NFL, I’d be a little more likely to buy the “I didn’t know what was in this supplement” line since the list of banned substances in the NFL includes some common stuff.

Amazingly, I find myself agreeing with Bud Selig on something: steroid offenses need to carry death sentence suspensions. 50 games is more appropriate than 10 for a first offense.

I don’t think we know his HOF chances. There hasn’t been an instance yet of someone missing the HOF where steroid allegations have been a factor. I think there are a sizeable number of writers that would have voted for Pete Rose, given a chance,

I’d like MLB to store the season records established during the Age of Steroids as a distinct era. Most HR, season (no 'roids) = Roger Maris
Most HR, season ('roid era) = Bobby Bonds

You can go old school and wear #8. I’ve never heard anything bad about Cal Ripken, Jr.

You know the arguments to this one right?

Maris’s record was not record because expansion year. 8 extra games and watered down pitching.
Ruth’s record doesn’t count because pre-integration.
I did a quick check, the Home run leader during the integrated era and before expansion and way before Steroids is: Ralph Kiner in 1949 hit 54 Homers for Pittsburgh.

This is all bullshit, I can’t stand Barry but he is the HR king. I actually hope he fails to come back to protect Aaron’s record. But he is the official single season home run king.

This day and age, if you “mistakenly” take steroids it’s your own damn fault and you are a friggin’ idiot.