Bullies need to have their asses kicked, period. Social adjustment claptrap all you wish, when you’re a little kid, you simply want this fucker to leave you alone, typically because you’ve done nothing to them other than breathe air. Been there. I salute every little kid who finally pounded their aggressor twelve ways for Tuesday.
I was pleased (and completely shocked) to hear about this kid. The kid offered his seat to Tyler any time he wants to sit by him, and I told Tyler to take him up on it. I had Tyler get his name for me, as well as his grade (he’s in 8th), just in case I can think of something nice to do for the kid.
I talked to him again today. He got on the bus before the bully, sat in the front row (because Bully hates sitting in the front, I guess), and “didn’t even look at him” when Bully got on the bus. The ride to here was uneventful, and he seemed pleased with himself. I asked him again how many times this kid has hurt him. He says he was hit in the side of the head once and kicked in the leg twice in addition to the events outlined in the OP, so it’s worse than I thought. He didn’t tell me before though because he “didn’t think it was a big deal”.
And just to clarify, because I see a lot of “teachers don’t help” and such, this isn’t a school thing, this is a bus thing. Tyler doesn’t know this kid outside of the bus ride here, so the teachers don’t know anything about it. (Unless bus drivers communicate directly with teachers, or the school administration passes on disciplinary action from the driver to the classroom, which I don’t see happening simply because it’s not relevent.) Although I have heard that other kids in Tyler’s class are being teased and such in the classroom without any obvious intervention from his teacher.
Anyway, thanks for all the replies so far. I’m not even going to wait for someone to get back to me, I’m calling that school first thing tomorrow and demanding that I speak to someone immediately. Even if I can’t set up a same day appointment, I ought to be able to at least speak with someone right now, IMO. And anyway, isn’t that what secretaries are for? I should have thought about that today when I was talking to a secretary. :smack:
You posted that Tyler, if hit, should respond with maximum violence in self defence, and that he will likely get suspended for a little while, and he might get more hurt as a result.
My plan is that Tyler doesn’t get beaten up any more and that he doesn’t get suspended.
The only reason you give for thinking this is that you had been severely bullied as a child.
If Tyler does get beaten up, explain how, according to you, “on his return to school, the physical bullying problem will have ceased.”
WHat are you talking about? I posted “Do not tell Tyler to fight with the bully.”
What does this mean?
You just dismiss my credentials and experience? :rolleyes:
Yes, this approach is successful. That’s why we’ve used it for years. I’ve seen bullies behaviour change dramatically. I’ve seen bullies become happier as a result of talking through their problems. I’ve even seen bullies become friends and defend their former victims.
I’ve seen families who had no idea how their child was behaving, and who promptly joined in to help.
In a few cases, I’ve even seen children suddenly realise that their ‘jokes’ were actually bullying.
Sadly there have been bullies who’ve refused to change and they’ve been expelled. At least the bullies and their families knew exactly what their problems were, having had extensive discussion with staff and victims.
Your ‘method’ involves no discussion and completely ignores the teaching staff and families of both bully and victim.
Are you seriously suggesting that a 7 year old should start a no-holds barred fight with a 10 year old?
Are you saying that 7 year olds should not tell their teachers about problems at school?
On what do you base this conclusion?
http://www.childline.org.uk/Whydobulliesdoit.asp
Why do bullies do it?
They have their own problems - they may feel upset or angry or feel that they don’t fit in - perhaps they have problems at home?
Maybe they get bullied themselves, perhaps by someone in their own family or other adults?
They’re scared of getting picked on so they do it first
They want to show off and seem tough
Many don’t like themselves and so take it out on someone else.
On what do you base this conclusion?
Do you want me to type the whole of our School’s bullying code? It’s printed in our School diary, which every pupil and every parent has a copy of.
Here’s another quote from Childline, a major charity:
http://www.childline.org.uk/Yourschoolcanhelp.asp
Your school can help.
Your school should be clearly saying NO to bullying.
Get everyone in your school involved in tackling bullying, not just the teachers, but other pupils, dinner ladies and playground assistants.
Find out how much bullying goes on in your school. Get together with other pupils and a teacher to organise a questionnaire about bullying (you can make sure that no-one reads the individual answers by putting them in a locked box). Once you have received all the answers, you can write up a short report for everyone to read.
Make sure your school has a good selection of anti-bullying books and other information in its library. Suggest that the school runs an anti-bullying week.
Talk to your teachers about having assemblies and discussions in class about bullying - classes could produce posters, pictures, poems, stories, plays which could be shared with the rest of the school.
Children need to feel safe at break time and lunchtime in the playgrounds - are there lots of things to do and supervisors around?
Get your school to put up ChildLine posters.
In some schools, older children help younger children if they are being bullied. Some have set up “peer counselling” schemes run by the pupils to help children who are being bullied, but also to help children who bully. If you would like more information about peer counselling, ask your teachers. ChildLine can also give you some information about it.
You seriously think that telling your child to fight (even if there is an entire gang of bullies?) is better than the above advice?
I don’t agree.
Yes, teachers don’t know what is going on until someone tells them. So tell them!
How does ‘force in retaliation’ work when the bully is bigger and older? Or if there’s a gang of bullies?
‘There was this gang of girls who hung around on the corner down the road after school. They used to push me into the road as I walked past them.
I tried to walk on the other side but they just watched for me and followed. Then they wouldn’t let me past and said I had to hand over my money.
I stopped carrying money, but it was no good. They said if I didn’t bring them money they’d tell my class teacher that I’d been buying cigarettes and selling them to the younger ones. I said I wouldn’t do it.
Then they started hitting me. They tore my jacket and said it would get worse every day’.
‘The counsellor helped me calm down and think about what I wanted to do. He was great.
I hadn’t talked to the teachers because I thought they wouldn’t do anything, as the bullying happened outside school. But once I’d talked to ChildLine about it, I thought I could tell my class teacher.
The teacher was very helpful. She said that I should decide what I wanted to happen, but she did say that the school could involve the community police who come in quite often and talk about drugs and things. I said I really didn’t want that.
I decided that I just wanted to be safe going home and my class teacher called my parents and got Mum to say she’d meet me at the corner. There wasn’t a big fuss and I didn’t have to get anyone into trouble.
Since then the school has held a whole day on bullying. Lots went on - assemblies, workshops and a theatre group and the Community policeman was there. He did a really good talk - you felt it would definitely be OK to tell him if you had a big problem and were really scared.’
http://www.childline.org.uk/Areyoubeingthreatenedbyagang.asp
I appreciate that you are deeply concerned, as any parent should be.
Please try to see this from the point of view of the school.
Suppose some bully strikes your child.
The first the staff know anything about it is that your child reports that he has kneed another pupil hard in the belly. He claims that he was struck first. When you are called in, you state that you ‘gave permission’ for this violence and that you will not change your attitude.
For one thing, what if the bully claims he didn’t strike your son?
What if the bully avoids the knee and beats your son up?
Are you legally able to give such permission?
Now both you and your son could be labelled as troublemakers, who think violence is the answer.
You are also putting a heavy responsibility on your child. He has to determine if he has been struck violently (does a push count? what about verbal bullying?), win a vicious fight, find a teacher before anyone else joins in and explain himself clearly under pressure.
Do you really want a meeting with your son’s teachers to be about why you think your son has the right to hit other pupils?
This is wrong.
Firstly, do you salute every little kid who got beaten up by a gang because they tried to ‘kick the bullies ass’?
Secondly there is a much better way to change bully behaviour.
http://www.childline.org.uk/Areyoubullyingsomeone.asp
Bullies don’t just come from out of the blue. Often bullies have had a bad experience themselves or they feel insecure or unhappy with their life. It doesn’t make what they do right but understanding what might lie behind their behaviour can sometimes help the situation.
What if you’re the one doing the bullying? You know that what you’re doing and saying is hurting people but you just can’t stop yourself. What can you do?
This is Jay’s story:
‘There’s this boy in our class, Carl. He was a right pain, I mean, he just whinged about everything. I once told him he was a wimp and he cried and the awful thing was that I felt good seeing him cry. The others laughed and that made me feel even better.
Then it got to be a habit. People copied me and I got even worse and said really horrible things. Then I started hiding his stuff and I really enjoyed seeing him panic and run about getting hysterical. I used to think it was funny.’
Jay didn’t think much about his behaviour until one day when his class teacher said that Carl was in hospital because he’d tried to hurt himself to get away from the bullying.
‘It had only been a bit of fun really - I hadn’t realised how it made him feel. I didn’t mean him to take it seriously. I rang ChildLine and said I was afraid that there was something wrong with me. I mean it’s not normal to like hurting people is it?
The counsellor was great. He talked to me about my family, how Dad had treated me just like I’d treated Carl when I cried, and how I felt when he did it. I even sort of understood my dad a bit better.
The counsellor asked me if I had anyone I could talk to about it all. In the end I talked to my uncle. He’s Mum’s brother and we go to football together. He helped me get back into the habit of helping people out rather than putting them down and made me feel better about myself.
I even apologised to Carl for what I’d done. It was difficult but I’m glad I did and now I don’t feel like there’s something wrong with me.’
Note that in this case, the bully was being bullied by his father. Do you still think that beating this kid up is the only way to go?
I’m glad that things seem better.
Do prepare for your meeting with the school:
-
they will appreciate knowing why you, not your sister, are there (Obviously that is a different situation, but it is a slightly worrying sign for staff when a parent is ‘too busy’ to discuss their child being bullied)
-
have notes on what exactly Tyler told you, as well as the name of the helpful older pupil
-
ask (politely!) what their school policy is on bullying (depending on what their response is, you may want to find out about anti-bullying resources in your area)
Good luck!
I think this is the worst advice I’ve ever seen on SDMB. As someone who was bullied every day for the entire last 8 years at school without remission or remorse, I can tell the OP with confidence to ignore this.
If followed it will, without fail, make things worse. The bully will NOT find someone else instead to beat up on, but will beat the hell out of Tyler. Depending on his anger management issues possibly to the point of serious injury.
Even if it “worked”, Tyler would then draw the conclusion that violence is a valid way to deal with problems. So whether this advice “worked” or not, a bad outcome would ensue.
The only repercussions that will make the bully think again will have to come from authority figures to work. Preferably bully’s own parents and the school. If the school does not take it seriously the kid has to be moved to another one; take it from me, bullying can ruin a person’s life.
Would a child psychology site come out and say some kids are just assholes, even if it was true? That wouldn’t be a very politically correct statement, or a profitable one (at least until they come out with an anti-asshole medication). I admit there could be deep-seated emotional reasons for bullying in some cases; are you willing to admit that some bullies just abuse other kids because they like to cause other people pain? And that the methods for dealing with these bullies might differ from the methods for dealing with other types of bullies?
While you guys are off making pie charts and tallying votes, some kid’s getting his nose broken.
Yeah, cuz bullies are totally going to go to the library to do research on bullying.
“Okay, Billy, read your poem about how bad that bully makes you feel. That’s sure going to make him change his mind about tripping you in the hall and stealing your lunch money.”
[Billy reads the poem.]
After class discussion: “Wow, class, wasn’t that great? Mr. Bully, don’t you feel terrible about beating Billy up?”
“I sure do!”
At recess, while teachers are off constructing bully-related pie charts: “Give me your lunch money.” [trips him] “By the way, nice poem, fag.”
The problem is that at most schools there aren’t people around. You’re not going to protect these kids 24/7; what’s the harm in teaching them to stick up for themselves, both verbally and physically, when the situation demands it, instead of running to an adult who may or may not be there? Maybe your school is the one in a million exception and there’s no bullying ever but I’d bet against that. The kids are just more creative about hiding it.
The better to sop up Billy’s blood.
Please provide statistical information from a legitimate source that says peer counseling has satisfactory effectiveness. Even rolling back reported incidences of bullying by fifty percent would do it.
Do I think fighting back physically is more effective than tacking up posters? Bet your ass.
I’m not advocating only fighting back physically, but the things you mentioned are long-term strategies. When someone’s punching your brains in, you need an immediate solution to the problem, i.e. getting this fucker to stop punching your brains in. You’re not worrying about bullying at large; you’re concerned with your immediate safety, as well you should be. That’s why it’s important to teach kids how to fight (and how to react defensively… martial arts are great for teaching defensive moves); it’s not turning them into bullies (unless they have a personality that’s geared for that, in which case it probably would have happened already), it’s giving them an immediate tool to use if their life is in danger (which it could be, kids are killed by bullies every year).
A good parallel is rape. Yes, it’s all well and good to put up posters, plan Take Back the Night events, establish hotlines. That is all a very vital component of rape prevention. But if I get attacked, I’m going to use everything at my disposal including (should I say, especially including) physical violence to fight back against my attacker. It doesn’t make me an abuser, it makes me less of a victim than I might otherwise be. Why shouldn’t it be the same with child-on-child abuse?
I was thinking the same thing earlier.
I suppose if someone is beating you, hitting you repeatedly, really kicking your ass, it’d probably be a good idea to use necessary force to get away (punching, kicking, etc.) as an immediate solution. In this situation, the steps to a long term solution (my meeting at the school and all that) would still be necessary.
However, that’s not what’s going on here. He isn’t trapping Tyler in a corner and beating the shit out of him. I’m not trying to minimize the situation because, believe me, I’m agonizing about this; I love Tyler so much and it’s killing me knowing that he has to deal with this shit. But, he’s not getting his ass kicked. Is he being bullied? Yes. But it’s one kick here, a slap there. It hurts him (which is honestly wrecking me because, seriously, he’s just a little kid 
), yes.
The kid is just fucking him, calling him names or making faces at him, talking shit and occasionally he hits him once (which is not, not okay). In this situation, don’t you think that Tyler is best served just leaving it alone? I think his fighting back would only escalate the situation. I think it’s closer to some random guy on a subway grabbing your ass than rape and I, at least, would not respond to those situations in the exact same way.
kick his ass sea bass
I will have to take exception to that, as I am not Asian, psycho or a dork. And I’m quite sure that folks of Asian descent on this board won’t appreciate being equated to psychos or dorks, either.
I understand that your response comes from ignorance about traditional martial arts training, and I strongly suggest that you go visit some martial arts schools and learn about them. You’ll see a few bad ones, you’ll see a bunch of good ones and you’ll see a few great ones.
Please, for OG’s sake, don’t rely on Hollywood to show you anything accurate about martial arts. It’s absolutely amazing how many new prospects I get that want to be a Ninja Turtle or a Power Ranger or Neo or just a badass buttkicker based on something they saw on TV or in a movie. And they are incredibly surprised when they learn that it involves several gallons of sweat and just as much instruction in life skills like courtesy, respect, honor, integrity, loyalty, self-control and perseverance as there is instruction, for example, on how to disarm someone attacking you with a club. After a while, it sinks in and they grasp the concept that the life skills training is just as much self-defence as learning how to do a sidekick.
Just to give you an idea - we do an introductory lesson with all our new prospects. I start out with a tour of the school and then we start doing some simple hand techniques: how to make a fist and how to punch. I then ask them what they would do if someone punched at them. In 14 years as an instructor, I’ve probably had less than a dozen students give the right answer. And when I tell them the right answer, they look at me as if I had just grown a second head.
The right answer, of course, is to run away. The Hollywood answer is to jump up in the air, kick them 8 times in the head, then reach down their throat, rip their heart out and eat it while it’s still beating. Yes, there are a few martial arts schools that will teach that. But there are many more reputable martial arts schools that will train their students to control their environment and themselves and to fight only as an absolute last resort.
I will disagree with this.
Using physical force is the last resort. Children should be taught that, but in addition, they should also be taught that on rare occasions. it is unavoidable.
Bullies pick on those that they feel will let them get away with it. Improving a child’s self-esteem and self-confidence will, in most cases, make them unattractive as a target to the bully, who will then transfer to someone else. However, when you combine the bully mentality with stupidity, sometimes they don’t get the message and have to be “educated” physically. And that will get the message across, because at heart, a bully is a coward and if the bully gets hurt because the victim fights back - even if the bully “wins” the fight - the bully will change his focus to someone else.
Let’s take a scenario. Your child is attacked at school physically by a bully. Your child defends themself and knocks the bully down, then runs and reports it to a teacher. Under the idiotic Zero Tolerance rules, the school will attempt to suspend your child for fighting. At that point, you the parent need to step in and stop that cold. One of the best ways is to sit down with the principal and point out that the other kid was fighting; your child was defending themself. That is a big difference. Tell the principal that if your child is suspended, you will file a criminal complaint against them as an accessory to the assault and be prepared to do it. Get a lawyer and file suit against the principal and the school board to compel them to reinstate your child with no negative remarks in his “file”. Get the local TV station’s consumer advocate reporter involved in this with the attendant negative publicity for the school and the school district.
Because, believe it or not, the school systems bully the parents. They do that Zero Tolerance bullshit because it’s a copout and the parents let them get away with it. Fight back and they will cave, big time.
And BTW, that is a real-life scenario that I described. The school caved and the student was reinstated with a clean slate. The bully was removed from the school and sent to the alternative-education school.
For a second to Clothahump’s post see here. I wish I had thought of a lawsuit, it didn’t occur to me at the time.
I called my sister at work this morning to let her know what I would be doing today, and she wasn’t there. I called over to my mom’s (where my sister lives), and she told me that sister went to work for a couple hours, but left early to take care of some things. My mom thinks that a meeting at the school is one of those things. Apparently they had this long talk last night and my mom was able to get her to actually listen, so… yeah.
Crap, if she restores my faith in her, who will I roll my eyes at?
This happened how many days ago though, and I still haven’t been able to talk to her about it for more than 10 minutes. But my mom’s had two seven year old boys (and two girls, too, poor woman), and I’ve had none. Maybe that explains her unwillingness to talk to me about it?
Speaking as a teacher, believe me, since Columbine and now Red Lake every school takes bullying very seriously.
Silverfire, are you listed as an emergency contact for Tyler? If so, you can contact the school and they will listen to you. If not, ask Mom if she would mind if you took the time she “doesn’t have” to speak to them for her. If she agrees to that (you’ve said that Mom is lazy, so if she sees someone else willing to do her job, she’ll jump at the chance), they have her create a statement saying it’s OK for you to discuss Tyler with them.
I would encourage Tyler not to fight back. I know that once you stand up to a bully, he backs down, but given that it’s only a bus thing Tyler would get in trouble too. I would encourage him to start keeping a journal of what happens. That way, it can be used in disciplinary action. When Bullyboy notices that Tyler is keeping notes he will probably back down, since he wouldn’t want to get in trouble. It’s like Tyler fighting back, but it’s on paper.
Good luck, and hug Tyler extra hard for me. 
Did you bother to read the list above?
What is the difference between bullying to show off and seem tough, and being an asshole?
Of course some bullies are assholes, but the same methods work. Get the teachers, the parents and other pupils involved. Confront the bully with his unacceptable behaviour. Are you suggesting that a victim fights a bully who enjoys causing people pain? :rolleyes:
This is a really stupid comment. The purpose of gathering information is to find out how bad the problem is and to get victims to come forward to be helped. Of course you are also watching for bullying.
The above advice comes from Childline, which has counselled over 1,000,000 children since 1986. They get over 2,000 calls daily from kids needing help.
Perhaps you could give us the benefit of your extensive experience in this field. How many victims have you spoken to? How many have you helped?
Wow. You really think this is advice for the bullies? Let me explain in simple terms. This is for the victims. You may have no idea how to help them, but Childline does.
Perhaps I could explain some more. The purpose of this exercise is to alert the whole school to the dangers of bullying, and to get their help in spotting it.
Once again this is for the victims.
You really don’t know much about this subject, do you?
Actually there are people there. They’re called pupils. And if they get sensible advice, they can help spot the bullies and report them.
The harm in keeping bullying a secret, and teaching the victim to rely instead on being able to win a fight should be obvious.
Of course there’s bullying at every school. Every new intake brings potential problems. But there’s a lot less tolerance at my School for it. And the pupils know to look out for bullying. They know the victims will get a friendly reception and the bullies will get an uncompromising one.
Why are you so hostile? Why do you make such insulting remarks?
The purpose of posters is to give the victims a number to call to get help.
From your remarks, I have this picture of you in a School playground. A terrified kid approaches and tells you he’s being bullied. You tell him to go away, stop being a coward and fight back. Because that’s all it takes. You walk away, satisfied your job is done. He gets beaten up by a gang. The rest of the pupils make a note never to tell you anything.
Well your method (never to report bullying to an adult) would roll back reports by 100%. Do you think it would stop bullying?
http://www.childline.org.uk/AboutChildLine.asp
‘Since it was launched in 1986, ChildLine has saved children’s lives, found refuges for children in danger on the streets, and given hope to thousands of children who believed no one else cared for them.’
:rolleyes: What a fine strawman.
Personally I think that walking around with a contingent from the US Secret Service is more effective than fighting back physically.
Actually you sneer at these strategies. What do you suggest we do?
You concentrate on one minute in the life of a victim. Everything Childline suggest is to reduce the chance of this situation happening.
Better solutions, especially when faced with a gang of bullies: Run away. Call for help.
It’s a lousy parallel.
Rapists don’t attack you again and again every single day. You don’t get gangs of rapists waiting on the same street corners for you to turn up. You don’t get advice like yours that you should deal with rapists on your own and not report them to the authorities.
Finally, how come you think posters and hotlines are a good idea? You spent most of your previous post ridiculing them.
What evidence do you have for this assertion?
Why do you want the child to fight with the bully, instead of reporting straight away?
You posted earlier about martial arts training: “I then ask them what they would do if someone punched at them. In 14 years as an instructor, I’ve probably had less than a dozen students give the right answer. And when I tell them the right answer, they look at me as if I had just grown a second head.
The right answer, of course, is to run away.”
And also: “Using physical force is the last resort.”
How come it’s the first resort here?
For every kid who successfully beat a bully into a bloody pulp and was held up as a hero afterwards are about THREE kids who tried and got slaughtered.
SOMETIMES it works. Sometimes, though, if you’re the only one being picked on by a huge group, you end up huddled on the ground, sobbing and bleeding. No, I personally haven’t been there, but I have seen it.
A couple of times, when people were picking on me, I TRIED to haul off and punch them. But I was small and clumsy and usually they just laughed.
I’m sorry, but the above sentence does not compute. Now, I don’t know you or your sister, but calling her apathetic and lazy seems a little harsh. She works full time? She attends school full time? She has no co-parent? Exactly what about this makes her lazy and apathetic?
If I knew a single, working mom who was also a full-time student, I would assume she was busting her ass to keep up with everything.