School bullying, please advise.

In My Humble Opinion
1

I watch my nephew (7) after school. He came here crying today because this older kid (nephew says 9 or 10) kicked him in the stomach on the bus after school. When I asked him exactly how it happened, I learned that this kid had thrown a piece of crumpled up paper at Tyler. When he threw it back at him, Tyler said, “Don’t you ever throw another fucking thing at me again.” Swearing’s bad and stuff, but my main concern was why he got so angry over a piece of paper.

After talking with him for a long time, I find out this kid picks on him all the time; tripping him on the way to his seat, saying things to him, throwing things at him, calling him names. Apparently, he slammed Tyler’s head into the piece of metal that runs between the windows once, and he picks on Kindergarteners! They’re babies, for fuck’s sake! He gets in trouble sometimes. Today, for example, he was suspended from the bus for three days (Tyler was told to not swear on the bus again). It’s obviously not working though because he keeps doing it; even a high schooler has felt the need to get involved, telling Tyler that when he’s being bullied, Tyler should come sit at the back of the bus with him.

So I talked to him about bullying and that he should always, always tell someone about it rather than retaliating, how to get away from a situation (even telling him that sometimes it might be necessary to use physical force (pushing only), which might have been a bad idea), and that, if he sees another kid being bullied, to tell someone rather than getting directly involved, which he’s done before.

I also talked to him about words and how they can be used to hurt people (including examples of non-swear words like fat, ugly, stupid, etc.), which tied into the “no retaliation” part, which focused more on his safety than his being “bad”. He knows he messed up, he knows swearing is bad. What he doesn’t know is how to deal with his anger in a way that won’t get him a boot to the stomach.

This kid is really messing with him and Tyler is becoming increasingly upset and angry and, frankly, it scares me. When my sister showed up, I talked to her a little, but she was more interested in getting to Wal-Mart before the optometry office closed to get Tyler’s glasses adjusted (like she couldn’t do it tomorrow) than listening to me. I stressed in the short time I had that she must take this seriously and that she needs to make sure that the school takes it seriously, too.

I don’t trust her to take care of this. So what can I do? What else should I say to Tyler? I can talk to the school myself even though he’s not my kid, right? What if they don’t listen to me? How do I respond to them if they say stuff like “Boys will be boys”, or whatever? I’m going to call the school tomorrow and set up a meeting with… who? The principal? Tyler’s teacher? The principal, right?

I have to add that I’m concerned about the bully, too. Are kids really assholes for no reason? I’m afraid that maybe something is going on at home; from parents who fight a lot or are divorcing, to neglect (being ignored, not feeling loved), to outright abuse, and maybe he just needs someone to talk to. Should I address these concerns with the school, or keep them to myself?

Any advice or experiences you’ve had are appreciated.

2

If your sister is not doing anything, then you should most definitely go directly to the schoo. The worst they could do is say, “Sorry, we only act on information given by a parent”, and somehow I can’t see them doing that. I think they’d be interested in hearing what you have to say.

When my son was being bullied by an older boy last year, I must say the school was extremely helpful. I ended up spending half an hour talking to the school counsellor over a cup of tea, and she was extremely interested in every last detail I knew about the bullying incidents. It turned out that the bully did indeed have “issues” of his own, and the bullying was not only directed at my son (so if you report this one that’s bullying your nephew, you might be helping more than one kid). It helped them to build up a profile of the bully so they could customise their counselling for him, and I also had the chance to tell the counsellor a lot about my son (little things like our pets and their names) so that when she spoke to him a day or two later, she could be more casual and friendly with him, and therefore he was more open with her. Previously, the bully had my son too intimidated to report the matter: “I’ll BASH YOU IF YOU DO!!”. Once the grown-ups put the wheels in motion, the victims usually realise they have nothing to lose and everything to gain by speaking up.

Please report this. You’ll be helping Tyler. You’ll be helping the bully get his act together. And you’ll likely be helping an unknown number of other kids this bully is intimidating.

3

Report it to the school.

And then tell the kid that the next time the bully hurts him, haul off and punch the unholy hell out of his nose.

It’s ridiculous to expect the innocent to just stand there and take it. Especially to tell a boy to not retaliate! How emasculating can it get?

We’ve gone over and over on these boards about how we teach people how to treat us. Keep telling Tyler to not retaliate and all he’ll be doing is teaching this little shit that he’s an easy target and he’ll willingly take what he dishes out with no repercussions.

One bloody nose and the bully will find someone else to beat up on.

What he doesn’t know is how to deal with his anger in a way that won’t get him a boot to the stomach.

I don’t think Tyler is in any way responsible for getting kicked in the stomach. This little monster has pushed and pushed him … frankly I’m surprised that’s all Tyler said to him, age 7 or no.

There’s learning to deal with anger, and then there’s walking on eggshells. If he’s taught to do the latter, he’ll be somebody’s doormat the rest of his life. :frowning:

4

Do call the school, ask to talk either with the Principal or the counselor. You could also contact the bus service, ask to talk to the driver. Ask him/her if s/he has seen anything that’s been going on. Having information separate from what Tyler is telling you is always a good thing.

I would recommend you sit down with him and create a log of the incidents. Of course, at his age it might be difficult to get specific dates, but “the week before winter break so-and-so did this” works also.

5

I am a teacher, and my school has an extensive code to deal with bullying.
Bullies are motivated for a number of reasons, for example:

  • low self-esteem
  • jealousy
  • being bullied themselves
  • peer group pressure

Do involve the parents.
Do get someone to report this to the school (preferably the parents).

Do not tell Tyler to fight with the bully.

  • if successful, Tyler can get accused of being a bully himself
  • if not, Tyler can get beaten up

In any case, this is the wrong message.
It is not ‘emasculating’ to get adults to help children with their problems. There’s learning to deal with anger, and then there’s using violence as a solution. If he’s taught to do the latter, he’ll be liable to behaviour such as ‘road rage’ the rest of his life. :rolleyes:

6

I don’t expect him to just stand there and take bullshit from people, and I sure as hell don’t think it was his fault that he was kicked today. More importantly, I told him over and over that it wasn’t his fault regardless of what he said to this kid. But this kid is bigger than him and has a tendency to become violent. So I’m supposed to tell a small-for-his-age 7 year old to punch a bigger, older kid in the face? And then what? He gets his head shoved through a bus window? He’s not physically equipped to beat this kid.

But there will be repercussions, assuming the school admins do their job. That’s the point; I want this kid and his parents to know that this won’t be tolerated. Clearly they’ve never been told, otherwise it would have stopped the first time his bus privileges were suspended.

The goal is to stop the kid from bullying anybody, not just redirect it onto some other kid. I heard quite a few stories from Tyler about his friends being messed with on the playgroud and stuff, so I have a feeling it’s a big problem at this school and not just on this one bus with this one kid. He’s a good place to start though.

I don’t think so either and, yeah, I’m surprised, too.

I don’t think I’m teaching him to walk on eggshells. At least, I hope not and I really hope to get some more opinions about this. I’m not all “Stop The Violence!” or anything and I think there is such a thing as necessary physical force, but he’s seven. I wouldn’t feel right telling a seven year old boy to go ahead and punch someone else in the face, especially knowing he could get his ass kicked, if there was another way to get this done. If all else fails though, I suppose all bets are off.

7

Oh, thank god. I thought I was getting all soft in my old age. :stuck_out_tongue:

Thanks, TLD, but this is America. It wouldn’t be totally shocking if the school was all, “Meh. :shrug:” :rolleyes: I hope I’m wrong. I’m glad you got your son’s situation under control, and that your dealings with the school went as smoothly as they did.

MissTake, good call on calling the bus company. I hadn’t thought of that.

glee, if I may, I’d planned on meeting with the school on my own without Tyler or the bully (or his parents) present. Would this be ideal? I figured I could bring my concerns to them and then set up additional meetings with the other parties later, if appropriate. And you said, “Do get someone to report this to the school (preferably the parents).” Tyler’s parent (my sister) seemed apathetic today (except for the raised eyebrow when her son said “fucking” to her), plus she works banker’s hours (because she, uh, works at a bank) and can’t afford to take a bunch of time off. These are her standard excuses for everything and I have no doubt they will apply to this situation as well. So I will be reporting this to the school and, unless they require her direct involvement, I’ll be handling it until the situation is resolved. I hope no one minds.

Abbie, other than telling Tyler to punch this kid, is there anything you’d suggest I tell him so that he isn’t “walking on eggshells”? I want him to know that being bullied is not okay, ever, but I’d like to avoid provocation and I do think he’d get his ass handed to him if he fought back physically. Aside from walking away or increasing the violence, is there anything you think I should tell him to do?

8

This may sound way out, but what would happen if Tyler had a video cell phone? Would you (on the other end with another video cell phone) be able to record what he sees and what happens? That might be intimidating enough to the bully that he would stop.

You might need permission from the school principle for Tyler to have a cell phone at school.

Whatever else you do, please notify the school administration immediately. Take a tape recorder with you and ask to tape the conversation with the principal. If these are school buses, something will be done or the schools will be liable.

You are wise not to get the child involved in fighting.

Bless you for getting involved.

My son-in-law is a Wal-mart optometrist. Too bad he can’t poke your sister in the eye just this once.

9

Okay, I’m not really up to speed with the American situation, so forgive me if this is a gross generalisation of your country’s love of litigation, but couldn’t you play by US rules to achieve the same result I got? Kinda talk to the teacher/ counsellor / principal thusly:

“Hi. I’d like to discuss some bullying incidents my nephew has been subjected to at your school and * blah blah blah* right to come to school and be educated without violence* blah blah blah* lawyer* blah blah blah blah* duty of care* blah blah school would be found liable blah blah* thanks for hearing me out and I’m glad you and I have decided to work together to end this situation ASAP. Have a nice day now.” ???

I guess what I’m getting at is that the differences in approaching this matter might be there between your country and mine, but the end result is that a small child is being threatened and cannot go to school and get an education in an environment free of fear. That is not acceptable in any civilised society. I can’t see that flying in the US any more than it does in Australia. And regardless of whatever “policy” there might be, you might find that if you talk to a teacher you will get a result. Education department pen pushers might be a pain in the arse to deal with, but the teachers themselves are the ones at the coal face. They are the ones who know and love kids, and I reckon they are the same the world over. I think if you can get a few minutes in the ear of one of the teachers at the school, you will find you have an effective ally.

10

All the responses are good, but I’d like to suggest that you enroll Tyler in a good martial arts school. Not so much that he will learn to fight, but that he will learn how to not fight. In addition, he will learn self-control, self-discpline and self-confidence. And he’ll learn how to handle bullies.

E-mail me with your zip code and I will see if there is an American Taekwondo Association school near you. Highly recommended: www.ataonline.com

11

I am not a teacher…or a parent…nor do I really know anthing about children or psychology…but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn once…
…ok…usually I sleep in Starwood Hotels like Sheratons or W’s but I digress…
anyhow:

This is true. But he’s getting beaten up anyway. At least he might get a few punches in and the bully will probably move on to someone who doesn’t hit back. Realistically, you don’t want to get a reputation as a violent psycho either because that can be just as isolating as being a bully target.

I would listen to the advice people have given about getting the school involved but you also need to remember the Rules of the School Yard. You don’t want your kid to be known as the kid on whos behalf the school has to intervein to protect from bullies.

You know, Ralph Machio’s problems all started because the first day at his new school he was shooting his mouth off about his “Karate” to the cool guys girlfriend. If he just showed up and tried to make friends like a normal person he wouldn’t have had to kick the entire schools ass in a karate tourniment to win acceptance.

I am firmly convinced that martial arts is a hobby for Asian kids, psychos and dorks. That said, it might not hurt to enroll him in some team sports. Hell be in better shape, he’ll learn to interact with other kids better so he’ll be more confident. Plus he will be able to compete physically with other children in a socially acceptible manner (which does not include Kung Fu fighting). Being able to socialize with other kids in a positive manner makes someone less of a target to bullies.

Gee I don’t know…you might get a video-call from the inside of Tylers butt? Technology won’t solve this problem.

12

I agree with the others that the school needs to be informed and something needs to be done about this bully.

However, I’m surprised so many people think it’s a good idea to do an end run around the parents. You need to talk to them, not to the school directly. They are the parents, they need to deal with this problem. If they are unwilling or incapable of dealing with it, then you can for them. But only with their permission first should you proceed.

Mom may already know about it. She might already be involved with the school. It’s just not your place to go and get involved.

13

Whose parents? What mom? If you’re talking about Tyler’s parents, he only has one and she’s busy. And I know she hasn’t talked to the school yet because I just talked to her 20 minutes ago and she said she hasn’t “had time” to call. She’s a single mom, employed full time, a full time student, and overall apathetic and lazy. Plus she has this idea in her head that she’ll wind up totally homeless and starving if she calls into work or takes a half day just once.

I, on the other hand, am a stay at home mom whose only committment on a daily basis is to my own son, and all we do is play. The world will not end if I leave him with someone long enough to run to the school and chat with some folks. My nephew needs this taken care of, and I can do it. I’m not doing an “end run around” my sister, I’m picking up her slack, and she’ll be informed the whole time.

If you’re talking about the bully’s parents, I don’t know them. I don’t even know the kid’s last name; I know his first name, I know his bus number, and I know he was recently suspended for three days. I have enough information for the school to figure out who I’m talking about, but no way would they give me a phone number where I can reach his guardian(s).

Clothalump, thanks for the suggestion. I have been considering looking into martial arts for him for a while. He definitely needs the discipline, and I think it’d be great for him. My only concern is my sister and her willingness to actually help him with it, and take him to class and stuff. I suppose I’d have to do that. Oh, and the cost, which I probably wouldn’t be able to do. But yeah, I’ll email you. Thanks a lot.

TLD, your “Hi. I’d like to discuss…” thing cracked me up. Good times. I should memorize it and just use that, complete with "blah blah"s. It probably wouldn’t work, but it’d be hilarious. :smiley:

So apparently the person I need to speak with is out for the day. I guess we’ll see what happens tomorrow.

14

IMO glee is talking out of his arse. I was extensively bullied (physically, verbally, and psychologically) and followed such advice - even after someone threw a stool at me, hitting me with an exposed nail just above the eye - and am the worse for so doing. Tell your nephew that he should never initiate violence, but if hit he should respond with maximum violence in self defence, but must stop once the bully is down. Do tell him that he will likely get suspended for a little while, and he might get more hurt as a result, but it doesn’t matter whether he wins or he loses - on his return to school, the physical bullying problem will have ceased. If the bullying turns to verbal or psychological bullying - which is actually worse, IME - tell him just to leave the classroom and go to the school library by a circuitous route. An adult will see him and challenge him, and then he can safely say that he was getting set on by the others and decided that he wasn’t going to rise to the bait but go somewhere safe.

If the teachers do not help he must be removed to another school.

15

:rolleyes:

YOu should know better than to get your information on martial arts from a freaking Hollywood movie. Martial arts won’t teach him to beat up the bullies-it will teach him how to AVOID being hurt, how to block punches, and how to defend himself without fighting. It’s more exercise and discipline than a fighting course.

BTW, I noticed you mentioned that one of the high school kids is protecting Tyler. That’s a good thing-maybe Tyler could go sit with him when it gets bad? (I think it’s great to see someone in high school helping out little kids who are being bullied.)

16

I’m sorry that you were bullied, but your ‘solution’ seems built entirely on your own anecdotal experience, and involves Tyler getting suspended, beaten up, and walking out of class. :rolleyes:
I’m amazed you post this stuff on a board dedicated to fighting ignorance.

By contrast, my advice is based on 29 years of teaching experience, including the use of a School bullying code, bully courts, specialist staff training and extensive discussions with fellow staff and pupils (both bullies and bullied). I have been told by parents, pupils and colleagues that they are grateful for my work and that it is highly effective.

Here, in case you wish to learn anything about the problem, is the start of my current School’s bullying code:

The policy on bullying which follows was debated, written and agreed by the elected School Council in 1998.
Every member of the School should be aware that everyone is different and should also respect other people’s views, wishes and habits. Bullying can arise from a lack of respect for others and can occur in a variety of ways. Whether it is physical, emotional or a lack of respect for other people’s property, bullying will not be tolerated within the School community.
The line between ‘having a joke’ and bullying is very thin and the School has tried to identify the distinction between the two. Bullying is repeatedly and deliberately causing someone pain by not respecting them or their property. The punishments for bullying must principally allow both sides to be aware that bullying is occuring and, if and when it continues, be severe.
There are therefore three steps which may be taken when a case of bullying (including race, religious, disability or gender offences) is discovered and reported…

17

You are drawing far too much of a conclusion from very little information. You are also misquoting me: I said that Tyler should be advised that he might get suspended, and he might get beaten up - but then he’s being beaten up anyway, so there’s no greater risk there. What I have said does, however, work. Are you suggesting that he should retaliate physically to verbal bullying? Far better to remove himself from the situation.

So? I used to look after schools for 8 years.

But has it actually changed the behaviour of the bullies once they’re out of sight? I’ve seen such kids in school and I’ve later seen such kids in the hands of Social Services and the Probation Service.

Remember, this is a 7-year-old we’re discussing. Exactly how does this help Tyler learn that he needs to stand up for himself?

18

I disagree. I think most bullies have too high an estimation of themselves, which is what gives them the license to do what they do. Of course, you always have the one bully who has the TV movie of the week story about the missing dad and the drug-addicted mom, but most of them are just little sociopaths.

Maybe if students actually did get help with their bully problems from teachers this wouldn’t be true. Unfortunately, most teachers don’t do a damn thing about bullies. So, when it comes down to trusting teachers (which, given my very personal experience with bullies, isn’t a whole lot of trust) or teaching my kid how to fight, I’m going to go with the latter, because I think it’s better that my kid go down swinging than just get beaten to a pulp every day, while the teacher sat on her rump smoking a cigarette.

19

This is something with which I tend to agree. It might not hold in all cases and true, some bullies might just be craving love and acceptance, but yes I think some children are geniunely pretty rotten through and through. Kids are not angels. Just as there are bad adults, there are bad kids. Just plain bad. I remember some from my school days, and I have seen some as an adult.

I also have a certain sympathy with the use of force in retaliation. I agree this is not an ideal move, but there are times when I think it is the best one - especially when the teachers are not providing any assistance. Often the teachers simply don’t know it’s going on - bullies might be mean but they’re usually not stupid, and won’t do it in front of a teacher.

Indeed, I have given my son my conditional approval to use force. I told him that he is never to initiate the use of force (the first punch), but if another child strikes him violently, he has my permission to punch or knee that kid hard in the belly to take him down. He is not to do any more than this. He is then to run straight to a teacher and report honestly what happened, including the part he played himself and why he did it. In these situations, the parent is usually called to the school, and if I was, I would back up my son 100% and be frank with the school that my son had my okay to fight back. He may still take some punishment for responding in kind, but I think in the long run it would make his school life a lot more bearable. So far he has not used this option though.

20

Absolutely fuckin’ ridiculous. Make the school be involved, it’s not hard.

Your best weapon in this case the threat of legal action against the school and administration. It’s ultimately their problem, the trick is making the school’s best interest line up with your’s and your nephews.

Explain calmly and real friendly-like that you are very concerned about the safety of your nephew and remind them that so long as he is on school property or on the bus, his safety and personal well-being is their legal and moral responsibility. You may further explain that in the event of any more bullying that results in any injury to your nephew or damage to his personal property, you will be filing criminal charges against the bully and a civil suit against the school district, specifically naming all members of the school administration with whom you have spoken and who have refused or failed to take adequate measures.

Never underestimate the ability of anyone in a bureaucratic position to cover their own ass.

Our litigious society sucks, but you might as well use it to your advantage.

If you do take this course of action, be sure to at least speak with your attorney first. Personally, I would have the attorney draft a letter outlining your expectations and the potential repercussions of their failure to foster a safe learning environment.
I am not a lawyer, I just happen to work in a very cut-throat field and view lawyers as a necessary evil and a powerful tool.