School shooters are my heroes

Great Debates
1

[Note: I am posting this in GD because it is a serious observation of a serious issue, but if the moderator feels it belongs in The Pit, feel free to move it there.]

Everyone has heard about the school shooting down in San Diego (less than 100 miles from here, in fact.) When I first heard about it, I thought the same thing I think whenever one of these incidents takes place: GOOD FOR HIM!

Let me explain myself. I feel this way because I know EXACTLY what his point of view is, because when I was a teenager I was angry and borderline psychotic (oh, hell, I was fully psychotic) and I had the same type of plan in mind as well. Unfortunately, my parents weren’t gun owners (if they were, they and me and several so-called “innocent” people would be dead, and while some point this out as an argument for gun control, I maintain it’s an argument AGAINST gun control) so I had to come up with a more creative plan. Won’t specify any details, but let’s just say that guy who drove through a crowd in Santa Barbara must have read my freakin’ mind.

Of course, I’m much better now. :slight_smile: But I promised myself I would never, ever forget what it felt like, when I was on the brink myself (and only the most extraordinary set of circumstances pulled me back from it) and I never have.

However it saddens me to see that nobody else bothers to take into account this kid’s perspective, they only want to sweep him under the rug. They blame stuff like rock music and violent computer games. They install metal detectors at schools (what’s next, strip searches?) and institute draconian rules – my own brother got suspended for wearing a coat that wasn’t a black trenchcoat but LOOKED like a black trenchcoat…how much more stupid can you get?? They never bother to look closely at the REAL root of the problem, because, let’s face it, they are scared that if they looked too closely they would be staring at a mirror.

Here’s the thing. This kid wanted attention. He didn’t get it. He tried harder. Still, nobody paid attention to him. He finally said, “ALRIGHT F**KERS, PAY ATTENTIN TO THIS!!” And the powers that be said, “Oh, you need help! Let’s PUT YOU IN JAIL FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE!” Squashed like a bug. Heck, when I was that age, my parents told me that if I felt like killing myself I should talk to them about it, but when I did talk to them about it, they told me to shut up. Hypocrasy, anyone?

What REALLY needs to be done is to take a close and hard look at the social pecking order in schools which praise sports and such activities over more scholastic activities, and to crack down HARD on hazing and teasing. There have been enough school shootings recently to generate a profile on these individuals, and guess what, there IS no general profile. The kids range from popular to outcast, good family to abusive, etc. Except for one thing. 80% of them were teased. Hmm, what are we to make of this?

I do not mourn for the lives lost or the families left behind. I believe that the hell that kid had to endure before he finally took a stand (to say nothing of the hell he will endure in jail) is worth more than a thousand lives.

J.E.T.

2

I wouldn’t go so far as you in justifying the disproportionate “punishment” of the kids who may or may not have been the ones who teased the shooter. I will say, however, that I am mystified by adults who wonder how this could happen, how could a kid do this kind of thing. I want to say, do you not remember high school at all?! It was pure hell, and a lot of the kids made it that way. I was a good girl, a straight-A student who followed the rules and never got in trouble. Yet I thought about shooting some of the kids who were in my high school, because they made it such a painful experience.

I don’t think I would have followed through had a gun been accessible, but I have to wonder at adults who can’t believe these things happen. Their memories are awfully selective.

3

Please tell me I read that wrong.

You’re saying that killing people is a laudable reaction to feeling bad, and not getting enough attention?

4

Oh I know how he felt. I’ve been there too. I’ve endured the hatred, the snickering, the pushing, the shoving, the tripping, the stealing, the constant feeling that your such a loser no one even wants to be seen with you. I know what the real root of the problem is.

A lot of high schoolers are jerks.

But that still doesn’t justify what he did. He endangered everyone in his school. The innocent kids, the ones who wanted to stand up for him but were too afraid, the teachers, people who had loved ones, folks who had dreams… all of them endangered because this kid couldn’t handle it. And he killed two people. I don’t know if they were bullies, or if he mistakenly thought they were bullies, or if they were good kids who were in the wrong place. It doesn’t matter. Even if they were jerks now they’ll never get a chance to grow up and change. Any potential they ever had is gone now. Now it’s the shooter that is evil. Killing someone because of bullying is a permenant solution to a temporary problem. It was a cowardly, selfish, dishonorable act.

I got my revenge by living well. I don’t know where some of my high school jerks are now. I do know a few are in prison. I own my own house, have a great wife, a good job, and a dog the size of Cujo.

Life sorts itself out.

5

If the perps had only shot/killed the people who were abusing them, I would POSSIBLY see where you were coming from. Maybe.
However, shooting random people is never to be lauded or envied.

I do agree that the genie is out of the bottle on this school shooting thing. The media has created the current was to “act out” for these kids. I have a WAG that 10 years ago these kids were killing themselves instead of randomly shooting up schools.

Until we address the bullying and unlimited abuse that some kids go through in Middle School/High School then I think we will keep seeing these shootings.

As a side issue…

I have noticed that all of the shooters were on drugs to control their behavior. I wonder if this just means that they were already in a high risk group, or if the drugs somehow shut-off some sort of internal judegment.

6

High school and junior high can be hellish indeed. In my case, 8th Grade was one of the worst years of my life-- I was teased, beaten up and basically stalked by a gang of older girls. I stayed home as often as I could get away with and dreaded waking up in the morning.

So I understand how painful these things can be. I abhor bullies and I don’t even have words to describe how furious I get when I hear about some unpopular kid being tormented by the in-crowd. But, I don’t think we can call indiscriminately murdering one’s classmates “taking a stand.”

I’d be the first to stand up and cheer for some long-tortured kid who conquered the fear and struck back-- it may not be the adult way to think about it, but I wish I had been able to beat the living daylights out of my own tormenters in school. That, however, is a far cry from (for example) toting a gun into the cafeteria and blowing away everyone who’s unlucky enough to be there on the day you snap. While I can sympathize with what drove you to it, I can’t elevate you to hero status, and no way can I disregard the pain you’ve caused among people who may have had nothing to do with what was happening to you.

7

Junior high schools are little more than mental institutes. They are packed full of adolescents dealing with hormonal changes, social pecking orders, bullying, changing physical appearance, new sexual feelings and/or orientations . . . It’s a wonder MORE people don’t commit suicide or snap out.

Going into my Cranky Old Lady mode, I might add that things are better now than they used to be—back when I was in school (during, oh, the McKinley Administration), the teasing, tormenting and such were just as bad, but there was no one to go to about it. “Oh, kids will be kids!” the teachers would say. “Harassment lawsuits” were unheard of then, you just had to suck it up . . .

8

What is with this “Lord of the Flies” mentality? Sure, it’s rough being a kid. But that doesn’t justify homicide. Not even if EVERYONE is running down the halls screaming 'Kill the Pig."

Good for them? What can possibly be accomplished by applauding the actions of a sociopath? Do you do the same thing when the sociopath is an adult?

-L

9

**

Yeah, I love it when someone gun downs defenseless individuals. Good for him!

**

I imagine a lot of psychotic people might feel the same way you do. Lucky for the rest of us we don’t base our attitudes on what a psychotic individual feels.

**

Well if you have any thoughts of shooting others for no good reason then be sure to take yourself out first.

**

I suppose sick minds think alike.

**

Actually there’s been a lot of talk about how some of these kids were picked on. If you weren’t so wrapped up in yourself perhaps you would have noticed. In the case of the Columbine shooters I think they reveled in being picked on in some ways.

**

Metal detectors are hardly draconion measures. Though I’ll have to agree with you on the trenchcoat part.

**

Uh huh. So I guess shooting people is just a form of self expression these days.

**

Sorry you had shitty parents. It wouldn’t have excused you for murdering others though.

**

How are you going to make students praise sports less then academics? In fact what does that have to do with some students being picked on more then others? I understand that some schools had problem with the jocks but in other schools it isn’t such a big problem. Yet every school has their own little pecking order.

**

Make up your mind. If you claim these kids are all doing it because they’re picked on then I’d say that’s a decent basis for a general profile.

**

You mean the popular kids are teased so much they decide to murder? How many people here were teased as kids? How many killed their classmates?

You don’t know what hell he had to endure. You don’t know how badly he was picked on or whether or not he himself was a jerk. I knew some kids in high school that seemed to go out of their way to be picked on. I suppose this was just some cry for help or attention of some kind.

If you can’t feel any sympathy for the families that lost children then you’ve got a hole in your soul I don’t know how to fix. Personally I think that kid deserves to go to a state-pound me in the ass-prison for what he did.

Marc

10

Jeremy
Hey I can see where you are coming from.
I was a jock,well sort of, but the same things were happening to me.We all have our mental monsters to slay.
The pushing stuff and the name calling and outright fights happened to me too.And I lost way more than my share of the fights.

The thing is the recent shooter was out of control. What he did was an outrageous escallation of the events. Sort of like firebombing the house of someone that stole your lunch.

Jeremy I don’t have any answers. They are your monsters. I do know that I saw the mother of the california shooter in an interview and cried when she said “He is lost. He’ll never have a future”. Neither will the two he killed.

11

So, it’s not his fault? It’s the fault of the people who teased him?

[Michael Palin voice]
It’s a fair cop, but Society is to blame…
[/Michael Palin voice]

12

I will not speak for this shooter or for other shooters.

I will not speak for any other child who survived high school by the skin of his or her teeth.

I will not speak for the kids who watched others’ suffering in high school, but dropped their eyes or looked away impassionately.

I will not speak for them, for I am not them and they are not me.

As most people doubtless remember, high school is about as close to a caste system as you’ll find in the U.S. You could be at the top of the pyramid, powerful among your peers, or you could be on the bottom, the object of endless scorn and ridicule.

Because of this system, there were innumerable kids for whom life in high school seemed to be the end of life. There were some of took the escape route of suicide, some who escaped through music and the arts, some who ran to drug use.

That’s changed in recent years, and not just with the Colombine shootings. In the early nineties, a kid from my old high school planted a small bomb in the locker of someone who had been picking on him all year long. The bomb exploded, but no one was hurt. Quite a stir was created, and eventually the kid was sent to a psychiatric hospital.

The Colombine shootings made it seem to oppressed children everywhere that it was at least possible to be done with the misery and pain once and for all. Children can be very impressionable, of course, and it’s possible that many of these oppressed are and were ignored by their parents, their teachers, and possibly most of their classmates. In short, most of these kids are loners. To that end, they feel they need to draw attention to themselves in any manner necessary in an effort to escape their own misery.

What this shooter did was wrong. There’s absolutely no excuse for it. And at high school age, kids do know right from wrong. Therefore, this child should be punished, but I feel that while he is being punished, an effort must be made to discover why he felt the way he did. This would be a long, long process, and not one that would provide a simple quick fix, either.

Finally, I will add this: the torment I personally suffered in high school (partially my own fault, since I did not stand up for myself) has followed me throughout my life. It has made me who I am today. The misery I endured during that time probably delayed my emotional development by many years, if not forever.

13

At this point, I think you have pretty much lost any support for your argument. Valid or not.

So you were angry because, why? Some meathead picked on you? Some girl you liked ignored you? Mommy didn’t pay attention to you?

So you planed to drive through a crowd of people. That’s pretty creative. So see the problem though. For every kid who actually commits these acts, there are probably 10000 guys like you who never actually do it and just want the attention.

Not from where I stand, you aren’t.

No, most people are not scared of looking in the mirror and seeing a psychopath. People are scared that they can’t predict which kid (or adult) will be a psycho. So to make up for that, they try quick band-aid fixes to try and weed out these people.

Boo hoo. You may have the right not to catch a beating every day but that dosen’t mean everyone has to like you.

From what I can tell, this was some nothing kid who was angry at everyone. He had few, if any, extraciricular activities. He wasn’t getting enough attention so he decided to try and be like the Colombine twins. They got a lot of attention, didn’t they?

So what if the high school jocks get all the attention. I’m still not sure why you think being unpopular is an excuse to commit murder.

Oh yeah. That kid is going to find out what it REALLY means to be picked on and tortured ( “Oh girlfriend! Bring me my smokes bitch” ). Ironic don’t you think?
If these kids had any balls and were really as rightous as you make them out, they would have only gone after the kids who picked on them. Instead, they act randomly. They attack other kids who’s only crime was that they were good at something and actually had a future.

Your post is obviously a cry for help or attention. I suggest you get the professional help you need.

14

Not in those exact words, but…yes. Yes, I do.

I’ll make it short. In my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings. And as for those few who actually DO benefit from Life, well…call it revenge.

Speaking hypothetically, if I were to kill somebody, I would in fact be doing them a favor. I do not wish Death on anyone who DEEPLY wounds me, I wish a long life of constant pain and suffering. (Being a quadrapelegic comes to mind.)

J.E.T.

15

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin *
**
[QUOTEIn my opinion, Death is preferrable to Life in almost all situations. When someone dies, they are free from the pain and suffering that Life brings. And as for those few who actually DO benefit from Life, well…call it revenge.

Speaking hypothetically, if I were to kill somebody, I would in fact be doing them a favor. I do not wish Death on anyone who DEEPLY wounds me, I wish a long life of constant pain and suffering. (Being a quadrapelegic comes to mind.)

J.E.T. **[/QUOTE]

Does everyone else agree that we’re answering the question of a suicidal, homicidal maniac?

Man…get some help. There are people you can talk to and medications that will make you feel better.

16

Wow, this thread sure took off. Haven’t even read half the replies and everyone has something I want to comment on. This is gonna take awhile…

I do want to retract something I said in my most recent reply. Where I said “revenge”, I meant to say, “the redistribution of misery”. In other words, if 10 people are happy and you are miserable, it’s justifyable to commit an act that makes THOSE 10 people miserable as well. (Or 100’s, or 1000’s, or even millions…that OK City thing comes to mind.) Evening the playing field, so to speak, like handicaps in golf.

To the person who said it was a permanent solution to a temporary problem, I want to point out that school hazing is NOT a temporary problem, as I still have to deal with the things that happened to me in my school years every day of my life. I have been permanently scarred and I’m a bit enraged that the “rules of the game” do not allow me to permanently scar other people in kind.

J.E.T.

17

I second the motion. Bad mojo, J’sET.

18

JEREMY – You can put me in the “you’ve got serious issues, man; get help” camp. But this intrigues me:

. . . and . . .

Could you please explain under what rationale it would be “justifiable” to inflict misery upon innocent people just because you were or are miserable? Under what theory is their happiness, or lack of misery, a personal affront to you?

I’m truly interested to hear the thought process that leads to such a conclusion.

19

You know, this truly exhibits characteristics of REAL sociopathology. As much as you see sensationalized stories about psychopaths on television, this is exceedingly rare in actuality. In every generation, there are only a handful of people with JET’s lack of remorse or regard for life on the planet.

I’m seriously creeped out by this conversation.

-L

20

Hmmm a common misconception

Quote msmith

So what if the high school jocks get all the attention.

If they saw the game they usually saw me and others get beat up. Look at the game that way if you want to ease your troubled mind.
Anytime I missed a blocking assignment I failed.
Anytime someone ran the ball through either hole either side of me I failed.
Anytime they tackled our QB we failed.
If they won we failed
If we won ,Well we still got beat up a lot.
If I got through their defence and tackled their QB. God I love this game.

A little bit of a hijack but we are looking at perspectives here.