You sick fuck. That’s fucking terrible. Do you have any idea what that is like??? No one deserves anything like that no matter what they’ve done. That is a terrible thing to say. You must be completely empty inside because you can’t truly have a soul to say something like that! It’s heartless! No matter how much you’re teased you can still breathe and feed yourself and shit for yourself. That’s a fucking disgusting remark and I really doubt that you’re “better now.” Go get some help you fucking nut case.
How in the world can you say we have no idea what acute misery feels like?
JET, I’ve been sexually assaulted by a guy who was supposed to be my best friend. I’ve had a former good friend threaten to kill me (seriously). I have been made fun of, beaten up, and picked on in ways that I shudder to think about.
That said, I CANNOT see where my picking up a gun and blowing away the people who made me miserable would help. It would NOT help. People are fallible creatures; they are going to make you both wildly happy and devastatingly sad unless you’re a hermit.
You see, I am an individual, and I have as much worth as the next person, because it takes all sorts of people to make up a world. I have thoughts and dreams and answers that are uniquely mine. Everyone does. It is not my place to play Fate, to decide who lives and who dies and why, regardless of how badly they treat me.
It’s inevitable. And yes, perhaps murder is inevitable, too, but it doesn’t have to be if people would learn that even though the world isn’t particularly nice to them, they can still be nice.
I realize some people have mental problems. So do I. I’m beginning to think that most of us do. There is help for that.
I do agree with you, however, that music and movies and the like are not the primary sources of blame.
The blame lies on the shooter. Maybe he did act out of desperation (and in that I pity him), but it is STILL his fault and it is NOT justified and even though I don’t believe in the death penalty, I do think he needs to be locked up because he is an individual with so many problems that it is not safe for him to live in society.
Most people go through high school, go through hell, and make it out relatively unscathed. They don’t go to prison.
No, bullying/harassment is NOT fair. Neither is murder out of a desire for revenge.
No problemo.
The ability to recognize that someone else’s pain is greater than yours is a rare quality and you are to be commended for it.
I dunno, I’ve found there are ways to transfer misery from yourself to another person if you do it right. When I got fired from my last job, I was in such a rage, I wanted to grab a gun RIGHT THEN AND THERE and “go postal” in the biggest way possible. Instead, I wrote an email to my boss, calling him equivalent to Hitler (he’s Jewish…and no, I’m not anti-semetic, he was a special case) and telling him that he was self-destructing and if he kept acting the way he did, he would lose his kids and his business, and a few other things. The feeling of relief was IMMEDIATE, and the killing urge vanished. I never found out what happened to him, he sort of vanished from the life of everyone I know who knew him. Hmm, I’ve been meaning to call his work number and see if it still rings. I think I’ll do that right after finishing this post.
Who do you think you are, Al Gore? 
Ehh, either I mis-spoke or you misunderstood. My objection to the term “innocent” is that it puts the victims in such a holy light. It focuses the sorrow on the victims and takes it away from the perpetrator who, let’s face it, probably had absolutely no control over his actions (that’s what I mean by the Karmic angle.)
Well, I’ll agree that Andy’s life is going to be far, far worse than anything that happened to him before. Except he made a mistake…he didn’t kill HIMSELF, which is what most mass murderers do. In a typical mass murder, the perpetrator either offs himself or gets whacked by the cops. In that case, he IS free of the pain, and everyone else has to deal with the pain he’s inflicted for once.
And…at the risk of presuming to know Andy’s mind, I’ll bet that in the middle of the act, while he was firing away with his pistol, the pain left him. Maybe for only a second. Who knows. But I do know there is some kind of visceral release when you burn a bridge so permanently that you can never go back (like the letter I wrote to my boss, above.)
Ehh, I don’t quite get what you’re saying here, so I’ll come back to it later. I really need to get off the 'Net and let things chill down for awhile.
Who knows, it might just happen. Recent events in just the last few days have indicated there might actually be light at the end of this long, dark tunnel. Or maybe it’s just an oncoming train…
J.E.T.
And for some of us, allowing myself to “forgive” or at the very least, put it behind me, allows me to escape the pain.
Time does heal wounds, if one lets it. HOwever, deliberately trying to cause someone ELSE pain is just fucking sick.
Scylla, Without actually experiancing severe “mental abuse” of the type JET is describing, it is almost impossible to understand what it can do to a person. Sure, everybody got teased a bit at school, most got beaten up a bit in the odd fight now and then. But that is nothing compared to the abuse some suffer.
Try to imagine if every single day of your school life, every single pupil at the school tease you, tries to pick a fight or just looks at you with disgust and contempt written all over there faces. Not only that but you have no friends you can trust, noone to turn to where you can let your gaurd drop. In other words total isolation, everyone making snide coments when you pass and doing there utmost to ruin your day. It is not just a matter of looking back at your own school life and saying “Well i got teased, i could cope with it, why can’t he” its not even a matter of multiplying up the teasing you suffered at school up vastly. Because even then you had ppl to turn to, and it was all only temporary.
I’m not saying that what these kids did, murdering other pupils, was in anyway justified, but i can certainly understand why they did it, and why, to them, it was a perfectly justified course of action.
Ever since i was about 12 i was picked on by the other pupils, I was bullied a lot, and even today i can’t understand quite why or how it started. but by the time i had been at the school for about a month, not only was i picked on, but noone else would go near me, for fear that they would get picked on aswell (as the few who did, were, so they soon stopped). I can’t quite remember what it was that caused it, but one day i just decided i wasn’t going to take it, wasn’t going to get hit anymore. So i took up Martial arts classes after school, after about 2 years, when i was 14+, I had gained a certain self confidance, i felt that because i knew i had the ability to beat up any one of the ppl picking on me, i never actually had the urge to do it. But because i gave a lot more than i got whenever i did get into a fight, it made the physical attacks stop, and i wasn’t teased nearly as much, because they were nervous that they might get hurt. So i spent 6 years of my life, from 12 - 18 only speacking to ppl my age 2 or 3 times a year, and although no longer openly hostile, there was always the “looks” and whispered comments to friends whenever i was near.
I never did get murderous intentions, the occational daydream imagining what would happen, but never serious thoughts about it. Even if i had, the means arn’t nearly as available in the UK as they are in the US. But i can clearly understand where the thoughts come from in others, and even sympathise with them. I just took a different route to dealing with my problems than others do, But it still affects me now, i still have problems socialising, and, tho not exactly paranoid, the fears of those 6 years are still with me. I still get depressed fairly often, and the idea of getting “revenge” for those lost years of my life, and the continued effect they have had on me, is never too far away…
SO before dismissing these ppl as “simply” psychopaths try to understand what it is that lead to it, and understand it is not all about “attention seeking” if i was to go on a murderous rampage**, it would be totally about revenge, and as has been already said, it wouldn’t matter who those ppl were, whether they were the ones who caused my suffering at school or not, innocent or guilty. It is society that i blame, and society that would be the target for revenge.
**Please note i have absolutly no intention of doing so, but i know how i would do it if i did.
not really much of a point to my post, but it certainly made me feel better 
My parents don’t even know half of it.
I noticed you ignored my earlier point about your “knowledge” of Andy Williams. So let’s try again Sparky. You don’t know Mr. Williams. You don’t know his family. You don’t know his friends, classmates, teachers, counselors, clergy or neighbors. Stop pretending that you know what was said or done to him. Any knowledge that you have of his treatment is heresay at best…and you’re making yourself look ignorant by claiming more.
JET:
I’m glad to hear the first part. Stubborn pride can get you through a lot and is a pretty undervalued virtue. Talented and gifted people often fuck up and fall irrevocably by the wayside, while the proud, dull and stubborn jackass plods on to victory. (This is not to say your dull, a jackass, or ungifted, I’m simply glad that stubborn pride is in your mix.)
As for things being closed off for you. That sucks. I won’t belittle your loss by using examples like Bethoven’s deafness not stopping him. Life rarely allows such exceptions.
If you feel like it, you might want to go into specifics about what these problems are. I’d certainly be interested.
And I for one appreciate the honest and unmelodramatic way you seem to have handled yourself. Yes, it is interesting.
LOL! Yeah, there’s certainly a feeling of having gone through the valley of the shadow of death after reading those, isn’t there?
No, of course not. You haven’t shared them yet. That’s up to you, and your discretion of course. I certainly don’t mean to insult you, but I also think to coddle you over incidents of which I have no knowledge would also be a form of insult. I’m pretty sure you recognize that.
On the other hand, it only seems fair to warn you that I am not known as the most ::ahem:: sensititive guy on this board. I’m truly not that way on purpose. But, if you’re particularly sensitive you might not want to talk with me. I’ll understand. I will be honest though.
Of course I cannot remark on your experiences. More importantly, I can’t remark on how they affected you. The latter is much more important.
If you ever read Shakespeare’s Hamlet and Othello, you may conclude that both were great men. Yet, both were pretty screwed up by the events which happened to them. The ironic thing though, is that if Othello would have had Hamlet’s problems, he’d have known just what to do, and wouldn’t have been screwed up at all. Hamlet would have been perfectly suited to handle Othello’s difficulties like a piece of cake. The point is that each encountered the type of problem that was pretty much guarranteed to maximally destroy them, because of who they were. It’s no reflection on their quality as human beings. It just happened.
So, I take it that your problems were pretty much maximally designed to screw you up. Bad luck. Nothing’s more fun then encountering a tough problem that you’re perfectly suited to fix, and little is worse than one that takes you apart. It’s not the problem, it’s the effect.
Still, I hope you’d concede that somewhere through human history someone had it worse.
To say it another way, it may be true that you’re Othello with Othello’s horrible difficulties. But, maybe it’s possible to learn a little Hamlet?
And if I may offer a little advice (probably worth what you’re paying for it,) you might choose to be careful about what you claim. While I have No idea what you’ve gone through, you have no idea what either I or another reader may have gone through.
Perhaps somebody else out there has worked through something that was worse for them, than what happened to you. You’d be insulting there circumstances, and they might have something to offer you.
I see your point. I don’t think I agree, though. Being teased certainly seems to be far worse than murder for you.
For myself being teased is no big deal. I was raised by a Recon Marine in my Grandfather’s house (a cop.) I got deliberately teased to “build character,” My childhood was bootcamp. I don’t think I was ever abused and had a great childhood, but the result of this socialization is the aforementioned insensitivity and rigidity. On the benefit side, I think I have a fairly independant ego that doesn’t get too disturbed by outside influences. Fortunately none of these things were too severe, and I was fortunate enough for the most part to encounter difficulties that I was mostly well-suited for.
On the other hand I react pretty extremely to even a small threat.
So, for me, being teased is no big deal. Being murdered though, would probably ruin my whole day.
I accept that it’s not the same for you. Cool. That doesn’t mean that’s the way it is, or the way it is for everybody.
Anyhow, it’s been interesting and a pleasure. Unless you choose (and it may not be the best choice,) to be pretty specific about your difficulties, it’s doubtful we’ll get anywhere.
J.E.T.
I see where you are coming from but have a question.
In your opinion would it have been better if the shooting victims would have been the persecutors?
I understand your view on “innocent victims” but would the payoff be greater if all the kids that got shot would have been the actual persecutors or is it of no consequence ?
Scroll up and you will see that “J.E.T”* is more likely than not just yanking chains.
If he/she/it/whatever isn’t, then the chosen method of dealing with a situation is what’s driving this thread’s OP.
Scroll up a tad and you can see that the method of “J.E.T” for “dealing with” a situation is spite and invective. “J.E.T” gets fired and instead of accepting that “J.E.T” just may be at fault, ol’ “J.E.T” flings a racist and hurtful remark at the boss.
Want more fodder for your false self-pity, “J.E.T?” Here’s some: I think you’re a liar and just posted the OP to see what the reaction of a group of mostly intelligent people would be.
I don’t believe there’s a psychiatrist or psychologist involved. But I do think there’s a troll here–you.
- Placed in quotes because I don’t think this is a new poster.
Monty:
I dunno, he seems pretty calm, matter of fact, and unmelodramatic, as well as admitting less than righteous motives. Most trolls never admit anything.
I’m prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt, and aren’t about to call him a liar, unless he does something to prove he is one.
Plus, it’s kind of interesting. So far.
Oh My God! First of all, the people who that fucker shot were not necesarily his tormentors (assuming he had any, I’m not sure about that, but who doesnt in high school.) He actually shot randomly. Even if he HAD targeted his tormentors, it doesn’t change things. I’m in high school now. I’ve been made fun of, I’ve made fun of people (not bullying or constantly, just friendly joking with people whom I know, know that I am joking.) Its a part of life. No body ever, since the first language was invented, has gone through adolecense (sp?) without at least light teasing. Should it happen? No. Will it continue to happen, absolutly.
Does anybody deserve to die because one dumbass psycho can’t handle name calling? Apparently you think so.
I’m sure that a bunch have already posted this but… I don’t care.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Jeremy’s Evil Twin *
**
This, in my opinion, is a much more appropriate way to deal with rage. Your boss pissed you off; take it up with HIM.
This, by the way, is where I think we have miscommunicated on “the innocents.” Those miscellaneous kids who may just happened to have been in the library at the time, or whatever … They may have been downloading from Napster, sleeping with the principal, dealing drugs, or anything else that would qualify them as “not innocent” to you. They’re not “holy”; when we refer to the innocent victims of these school shootings, we refer to those who were not guilty of having done the deeds which provoked the killers’ rage.
[aside]I got a real laugh out of this, though. You’re OK with posting that the school shooters are your heroes and getting everyone up in arms about that, but you’re worried that we might think you’re anti-semitic???[/aside]
emphasis mine
I don’t buy this in any way, shape or form. He had absolutely no control over his actions? Of course he did. This was a premeditated attack.
**
Again, it appears we had a bit of a miscommunication here. Certainly I agree with you that Andy has seriously messed up his own life even more than it was to begin with, and thus increased his own misery. The exponential increase in misery I was referring to was the fact that the situation started with one person who was desperately miserable, who then took actions which killed or injured a number of students, causing them extreme trauma, and presumably each of these students is loved by one or more people, who were traumatized by the event, going on down to people like me who don’t even KNOW anyone in California, yet are saddened by the empathy we feel for the students and their parents, and scared as hell for our own children.
**
In this section, I was speaking as if you were planning one of these attacks, in order to justify why I find them so wrong when you do not.
In your posts, you empathize with the pain of the killer, but remain oblivious to the pain which he has inflicted upon others. Your attitude seems to be “I hurt; therefore I have the right to inflict hurt to even things up.” This position seems to be entirely self-centered. (Don’t read the term “self-centered” as an insult, but more as an attempt to describe your position.)
You seemed earlier to have been impressed by my ability to recognize that others have been hurt more than I. I honestly don’t feel that that is an exceptional trait. The ability to empathize and recognize the pain of others is part of what makes us human. That’s why I ask you why you wish to take yourself down to the level of those who hurt you. I feel that the inability (or lack of interest) in recognizing that one’s actions may cause pain to others, or, worse yet, taking pleasure in deliberately causing pain to others who have done you no harm, makes one less human. (How’s that for an unwieldy sentence? I’m getting tired, too.) In other words, I feel that taking pleasure in inflicting pain on others makes one a bit less human. Why would you want to join the club of the sub-humans that hurt you?
Keep heading for that light. Just be sure to walk BESIDE the tracks…
I do not agree that these people needed to be shot buuut.
Bullies as a group do what, ridicule, assault and otherwise injure people who are less able to defend temselves from the “bullys” harrassment. The often are groups of people doing this harassing. From that angle it turns into a kinda live by the sword, die by the sword thing.
<disgruntled kid voice>
“Whos the bully now buddy”
BANG!
[Moderator Hat ON]
Ok, let’s get some things straight here. Do NOT urge another person on this message board to commit suicide–at least, I better not catch you doing it in my forum. Nor is it neccesary to call someone a “sick fuck.” Nor are you allowed to tell anyone to “fuck off” in this forum, even if you spell it out in semaphore or smoke signals or rebuses.
Now, Jeremy’s Evil Twin has stated that he has no intention of committing murder. However, he is arguing for the morality of killing people who have done him no harm. I see this as roughly analogous to a person arguing that abortion doctors should be killed, but who do not ever intend to do so themselves. While the morality may be appalling to many people, it can be a legitimate subject for debate and need not be censored so long it stays in the realm of moral theory and actual commission of illegal acts is not proposed.
Now, JET’s thought processes may very well be similar to what the shooter’s were, and can have some valuable insight. Or they may be totally off base, but still an alternate morality possible worthy of debate (if not consideration, for most people). Since this is Great Debates, let’s actually argue the question that appears to be at hand: “what justification can make it moral and sensible to kill those who have done you no harm?” Try to keep things calm in here; I have a bit of an itchy trigger finger on this thread and it wouldn’t take too much to make me lock it down.
[Moderator Hat OFF]
How would you recommend we react to someone wishing something like paralysis on another person? Most people refer to things like that by saying, “I wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy.”
Sounds good to me.
One difference is that he has not advocated that you, personally, become paralyzed, just a general thought that paralysis is a good thing. Another difference is that wishing a person would become paralyzed can in no way (barring undiscovered mystic powers) induce that person to become paralyzed, whereas I am somewhat uncomfortable at the thought of my Dopers ranged outside a jumper’s building yelling, “do it, you pussy!”
And comments on moderator decisions belong in email or in the Pit, not Great Debates, please.
I am not a psychiatrist, but it seems to me that this paragraph is one example among several amongst your posts that show that your thinking is defective when it comes to what is acceptable social behaviour. The lack of empathy can have many causes (mental illness being one example) and without more information it would be hard for me to tell what induces you to think that harming other people is justifiable. I urge you to continue your therapy sessions and I hope that this will help you arrive at a greater compassion and understanding of what suffering can mean to other people besides only yourself. Good luck!
Testify, brother!
J.E.T.
Of course I don’t know the specific details of what was going on in his mind. Maybe we can get Andy a computer in his jail cell and he can tell us. HOWEVER…I do think I have pretty good insight as to how his thought processes were working. Are you claiming that perhaps this outburst just “happened”, like he was a normal kid one day and then said, “Hmm, I feel like killing people this morning…” Just because I’m not a psychic doesn’t mean my viewpoint is to be totally disregarded.
J.E.T.
Thank you very, VERY much. You might be only the 3rd or 4th person in my life who knows my difficulties and has said that.
Well, one major problem is the total inability to connect with other people. We’re not talking regular social anxiety here, we’re talking voices-in-the-head that get louder and more confusing and misleading as relationships get closer. Beyond that, I don’t know, because I don’t understand “normal” life well enough to explain how my life is different.
Well you could have fooled me. Here I am being treated like a pariah by everybody else, and here you are talking to me like a normal human being. I appreciate that. And I value honesty far more than sensitivity.
Yeah, a story with a hero that can easily handle everything thrown at him would make for very boring fiction. Hmm, maybe that’s what’s wrong, I’m stuck in a novel being written by a tremendously sadistic author. BTW I’ve read Hamlet but not Othello.
Well, I’m not in jail, unlike many high school students that routinely grace the news these days, so maybe that is something.
I’m not exactly clear what you’re referring to here? I think I already said that to every person, their own problems seem to be the worst things that could happen to anyone, except in rare cases of people with the gift of true empathy.
Perhaps somebody else out there has worked through something that was worse for them, than what happened to you. You’d be insulting there circumstances, and they might have something to offer you.
Well, to compare notes, my paranoia is so extreme that I get paralyzed over the tiniest details, like sending an email and when a reply doesn’t soon come I wonder that I mortally offended that person somehow, and when they DO respond I get paranoid that if I don’t immediately respond they will hate me. I’m also short on trust, but that can be an advantage because as a result people don’t get over on me easily.
Another advantage I have is “The Look”. Basically, if someone asshole is getting in my face, I can stare right at them in such a way that strikes fear into their heart enough for them to leave me the hell alone. Doesn’t work on everyone though, and that can be a problem.
No offense, but that last sentence made me laugh so hard, I fell right out of my chair. I mean, think about what you said.
Does the specifics I gave in this post help?
J.E.T.