I’m sure they accept some students. I’d be interested in knowing the details of your case. I do know that at our school there was a girl last year who as manic-depressive and schizophrenic. She was on medication, but during the middle of the semester, she hit one particular low and did not leave her room for a week.
The school kicked her out as a suicide risk, they didn’t want to be liable.
She spent this year at home falling steadily behind, cut off from friends. She attempted suicide twice, and succeeded the third time.
I’ve never been to a public school in my life, but would they have been permitted to keep her out of school?
The level of naivety and assumptions are just astounding.
Stop addressing differing State programs, the OP is talking about the federal program which supposedly mimics the Florida program.
Davis McDavis… you are far too easily disgusted, take some TUMS.
Unless the State of Maryland is substantially different from other States in the union, school budgets are paid mostly by property taxes. Property taxes are on a local level. Thus each County or incorporated City pays for their own education system. The State government steps in for shortages, i.e. Baltimore City. That is the only way that you in the burbs will pay for the public schooling of some poor kid in the City. So don’t break your arm patting yourself on the back for you willingness to help the public school system. The inner-city public schools are failing the students far more than the ones in the burbs.
Perhaps Maryland is different from other States … I would appreciate feedback if it is the case, because it could compromise my assertions if so.
The whole argument about whether your funding goes to a public school or private school where you have no say… do you really believe YOU have a say in what public schools teach? You might get them to teach something for your kid, or if you get on the Bored of Education, you might have some input. This stuff is decided by bureaucrats, by politicians. And in some rare cases, the teachers even get some input.
Your tax dollars also go to pay for kids who get expelled or drop out of school. If the current system worked, noone would be talking about vouchers to give the kids an option, an opportunity to break the circle of ignorance. Does it really matter what the curriculum is when 50% of the students in a school can’t read?
The voucher program of GW Bush DOES NOT GO TO THE RICH!!!
If you never read this, you will never agree, because your so concentrated on the idea that this will only help the rich and the middle class you can’t see past it to realize that this program is for the poor children in the depressed neighborhoods with the worst schools.
Please read my prior post… the middle class and the rich almost invariably CANNOT participate in the voucher system because schools in their neighborhoods will pass the school testing system. The GW voucher program is NOT OPEN TO ALL. The program is not just about vouchers for private school, it is about vouchers to get out of a failing school that these kids are trapped in. They can go to ANOTHER PUBLIC SCHOOL if they wish.
All private schools are not 10k a year… do a little quick math. If I rent a classroom, hire a teacher and an aide, pay for some books (or pass that cost to the parents, an option). I can be a nonprofit and escape taxation; With a class of 20 kids I can bring in $80,000.00 a year. I’m not going to get rich off one classroom, but I can operate in that budget. Day cares succeed with as many children and twice the staff at $100/a week ($5,200, but for the entire year). I only have to operate 8 months out of the year.
Do you think I couldn’t get one of the best teachers in the country for $35-40k?
Do you think there aren’t people out there who care about underpriveledged children? Who care about the future of their City? Their race? There are lots of people starting businesses in the inner-Cities, making some money, but at the same time providing services to train the unskilled, to teach the uneducated. Don’t kid yourselves, there are more small businesses that are interested not only in making money, but making an impact than there are corporate gluts.
The 10K/year schools you are thinking of are exclusive anyway. Vouchers won’t help. You have to get in a waiting list and make the right connections inside.
Regarding flop-house schools popping up… there is another requirement under GW’s plan, the school has to pre-exist ON IT’s OWN, without vouchers for one year AND pass an achievement test to qualify.
The private schools will also be tested if they want to participate in the voucher program. If they do not wish to be tested, they cannot participate in the voucher program.
The private schools CANNOT force religion on a voucher participant. This is tricky because they can make it a requirement for admission or deny admission. But they must inform the student and parents of the requirements prior to admission.
Someone mentioned the rural communities. Same thing applies, if there is a rural community with a failing school, don’t think for a second there isn’t a private industry willing to come out for 20 students. Low wages, low cost of real estate, that would just make the fixed income of 4K per student MORE attractive.
I’ll repeat this, because it is the keystone that noone seems to grasp… the GW Bush voucher program is NOT FOR THE MIDDLE CLASS and definately NOT FOR THE RICH. Their schools are performing well and the students are thus ineligible. This program is for the kids stuck because of their residence and economics in a really crappy school system.
If their parent(s) could afford to move, they would. They are stuck in their district. The purpose of this program is to break a cycle of ignorance that runs generations. This is to help these inner-city children get the education they need to compete and get out of the cycle of poverty that is so rarely broken.
If I misunderstand the GW Bush program, or other State systems for paying for education, then I am open to correction, but if what I have read of the program is accurate, any alternative would be to condemn these children to continue the cycle of poverty and ignorance that has haunted their families for generations.
Although there are has been a lot of discussion about using vouchers for private schools, there is another type of voucher program that I would support. In Texas, I have to go to the school district where my home is. I usually have to attend the designated school based on the school district’s boundary.
The voucher proposal I’ve seen would also allow me to take my voucher to another school district if mine isn’t doing so well. For example, Dallas has some very bad schools. If there were a voucher program, I could use my voucher to attend Richardson or Plano schools if the school’s test results fall below a certain threshold. I believe Florida is proposing this as well.
Without getting into a long argument about student testing (it’s already been covered in another thread), this program allows me as a parent to choose the public school my child attends based on the success of that school to teach my child, something I don’t really have now.
The state of Maryland is substantially different from the state of Michigan, at least.
We used to fund our schools locally in the manner you describe, but now all property taxes relative to schools are shipped down to the state capital, and a per-pupil foundation grant is sent back to the schools. Thus, everybody is paying for everybody else’s public schooling.
My area of the state is pissed, because it’s really growing, but the property tax benefits of that are being realized by the state, and only trickled back to the schools.
JAG It’s pontless to have a discuusion about the voucer plan by GWB if we can’t see it. Sure, you can say it’s modeled on Florida’s but that’s hardly assured. As far as the various voucher initiatives moving through various states including California, my arguments stand.
If you’d like to provide a link to GWB’s national voucher plan, I’d like to discuss it as well.
What JAG does not address is the dark underbelly of Jeb (and W’s proposed) plan. Bullshit accountability tests.
How does one measure whether a school as “failed”? Currently math, reading comprehension, and writing tests are administered in the 4th grade, 8th grade, and (I think) 11th grade in Florida. If the school fails two out of three of these tests, the school is considered a failure.
I am all for accountability in education. But doesn’t anyone have a problem with this arbitrary heavy-handedness? Who determines what goes on the tests? Whose curriculum? How will the tests be administered?
If anyone here has experience with ETS, the Educational Testing Service, he would know what a monumental bureaucracy it is. ETS is the for-profit corporation that creates the SAT exams, AP exams, and a whole haggis of other educational testing products.
For someone who hates government as much as W, doesn’t this seem like an utterly ass-backwards plan?
MR
Well, of course not, Maeglin.
It’s perfectly OK because ETS is a PRIVATE corporation.
Monumental bureaucracy, egregious misconduct, horrendous inefficiency and outrageous ineffectiveness ONLY HAPPEN IN GOVERNMENT. Private corporations are totally immune to these problems, no matter how huge they become.
Geez, don’t you people ever listen and pay attention?!?
:rolleyes:
stuffinb… agreed, I guess that is why alot of people are against it. Maybe I would be too if I saw the details.
Across the board, on all platforms, why don’t these politicians trust us stupid voters to see their proposals?
Or maybe I just haven’t found where to look?
How does Al Gore get all of Bush’s program specs and we voters can’t? (who would even know if Bush has Gore’s)
Maeglin… the testing question is an excellent one. Is it done at State level or Federal? What is the basis? How many students have to fail for a school to be considered failing? Is it on a national curriculum or State curriculum? If the price of a voucher system for the poor is that the system will be abused to abandon them, then it is the wrong program and should be abandoned as well. But on the merits of the stated intent of the plan, those abuses should have safeguards in place.
Further the question of a federal curriculum comes up and do we want the Party in charge to refocus the curriculum every 2 to 4 years… again, a potential devil in the details that should not exist in the plan as it is intended.
But on the issue of whether a voucher program would help, I hope that at a minimum, the assertions of the Jeb plan will open up at least the spark of possibility that it can work if done properly. I would love the voucher program to apply to me, but it won’t. I’ll accept that burden to see these children that have little to no future get a chance.
My company manages section 8 housing in one of the most depressed, drug-infested areas in Baltimore. We have had four generations of the same family living in various units of our apartments. Four generations living off the system. It is a sad, sad situation.
You look into the eyes of these babies, condemned to live in a building desecrated by drugs and crime. Like their parents and the parents before them, they have no way out. There are plenty of programs to keep them alive, we need programs to let them have a life. The voucher program is one way to let them get a decent education. State subsidies didn’t work, federal ones won’t either. They need a way to get an education from someone who can provide one. They need a choice other than the one they have right now… ignorance and poverty.
the federal government has no authority over the public or private schools. The presidential debate is a smoke screen. It is up to the States to pass a voucher program or not. The teacher’s unions will fight it all the way. They may even strike if voucher programs are approved by the voters. All the federal government can do is put in financing to support the programs. Now we all know that not every state will approve the same voucher program and none of will live long enough to see thing ever get done.
I lived for 20 years in a small village just south of Big Sur in California. We didn’t have enough students to worry about over crowding but we sure had a bunch of uneducated kids. The Presbyterian church had a bunch of retired teachers in their congregation. These ladies decided to start an afterschool reading program for the kids that weren’t reading well. The kids were dropped off by the school bus and away they went.
The first year they had 20 kids (15 spoke no English) and they soon were taking top scores in the class rooms. The second year they had 100 kids. This started to grow to such an extent that they are now building their own school. Tuitition started at $.50 each day and I honestly don’t know what it is today. I dropped in once or twice a week and taught music appreciation. It was great fun.
They didn’t need vouchers to bring the scores up. The great thing is the reading these kids are doing. All the classics are offered and discussed.
Too many churches are not being utilized during the day. If the parents can be creative in their communities all the school problems can be solved.
Don’t wait for your government to fix anything. They can’t do it…
JustAnotherGuy’s comments appear in quotation marks:
“Unless the State of Maryland is substantially different from other States in the union, school budgets are paid mostly by property taxes. Property taxes are on a local level. Perhaps Maryland is different from other States … I would appreciate feedback if it is the case, because it could compromise my assertions if so.”
In Minnesota, the state government pays 70%, the local pays 30%. That’s at least one state where it is different.
“All private schools are not 10k a year… do a little quick math.”
Yes, but as college loans and grants have increased in the last twenty years, so have college costs. The tuition will rise to eat up whatever money is available.
“Do you think I couldn’t get one of the best teachers in the country for $35-40k?”
No. My brother Gar, fluent in three languages, two Master’s degrees, licensed to teach Spanish, math, and science, can easily get over $40K and has an offer for $50K. Benefits will add on about 50% in costs.
Now, are you going to have computers? Insurance? A space? Books of any kind? School supplies? Lunch? Transportation?
“Do you think there aren’t people out there who care about underpriveledged children? Who care about the future of their City? Their race?”
Yes, and a lot of them are called “teachers.”
“Someone mentioned the rural communities. Same thing applies, if there is a rural community with a failing school, don’t think for a second there isn’t a private industry willing to come out for 20 students. Low wages, low cost of real estate, that would just make the fixed income of 4K per student MORE attractive.”
In my town, if someone said “we’re going to start a school that is really tough! We’ll teach Latin and have a top-notch science lab and study Shakespeare and all kinds of great things to prepare you for college!” there would have been about three students. Yep, $12K will really do it. and of course, the prospect of low wages will certainly make prospective teachers LEAP at the chance.
“If their parent(s) could afford to move, they would. They are stuck in their district. The purpose of this program is to break a cycle of ignorance that runs generations. This is to help these inner-city children get the education they need to compete and get out of the cycle of poverty that is so rarely broken.”
Why not just improve the public schools? Here’s a possibility–instead of W requiring testing and all of his other programs, how about if he does the other thing he claims to believe in…not telling people what to do? Letting the teachers teach? Trusting people?
Bucky
Ok, here goes. I’m the child of two educators who’ve held pretty much every position in public schools that exists. I went to a rural public school until I graduated a year early, then went to boarding school for a year. Prep school was great for me, and really helped me grow into who I am today (I know that sounded sappy but it did). (BTW, it was one of those >10K a year schools, and connections had nothing to do with it for me and the vast majority of those there.) And I believe vouchers are a very bad idea.
One thing I haven’t heard mentioned yet is the following. The biggest problem for a lot of schools is a lack of parental involvement in the child’s education. The parents who will take advantage of the vouchers care about their kids and are involved in their education. This is a sizable factor in a kid’s, and a school’s, success. Of course, some parents who are involved still won’t have enough money to get their kids into private school, and some who care are too busy putting food on the table to be really involved or don’t know how to help their kids.
The net effect is that the proportion of parents who care about the quality of the schools will go down the most in the worst schools. IMHO that’s having an effect on the Baltimore school system problems mentioned. Obviously that’s not the only issue, but think about it. All the parents who care about education, and have the money who do so, move out of the area, and the schools lose the good students and parents. So the kids who are left behind are double-screwed because the schools get worse, AND their parents don’t motivate them to learn.
Another point that’s been beaten to death (but I’ll beat it some more 
) is the fact that private schools get to choose their students. Yes there are some schools that specialize in difficult kids, and some that kick them out at the first sign of trouble. The thing is, there aren’t too many with both. It’s much harder to teach both difficult and good students at the same time than to specialize in one or the other. Also, keep in mind, if they can choose their students, they might not choose your kid. A lot of people forget that part.
Yet another point that’s been belabored is whether the school will get more money per pupil when a student is removed - well, not in CA. The following quote is from the official CA voter’s guide: “As children move from public schools to scholarship-redeeming schools, the state will save money that would have been spent on them in public schools.” In other words, the leftover money from that student goes back to the state - NOT to the public school. That’s from this website:
http://vote2000.ss.ca.gov/VoterGuide/
Here’s another site on Prop. 38 from an impartial group.
http://www.calvoter.org/2000/general/propositions/38.html
For those who say once the public schools have competition, they’ll improve, I ask how? Don’t you think that if the schools knew how to improve, they would do it? There are a few cases where incompetency or politics (I mean in the school or Board of Ed, not state or national politics) are the problem, but the problem is far more likely to be students who are trying to learn in a foreign language, or whose most nutritious meals are in a school cafeteria, or have to put up with disruptive students day after day. Competition won’t make that magically go away. If you think it will, give me definite, concrete answers about how.
Same arguments over and over that I have answered.
If you can’t open your mind to the possibility that it could work, then there is really no point in debating … that is just bashing an idea for the source rather than for the merits of the program.
Sandy Price: You can argue against it passing States and Unions all you want, but that is not the issue. The issue is would a federal voucher program work? The State of Maryland did not have any control over the Board of Education in Baltimore City until it flexed it’s arm. Now they have some input in a failing school system that they are helping to fund. If the laws were perfect the way they were, we wouldn’t need a Congress now would we?
There was a time when people said Social Security would never pass the federal government… it did.
“Don’t wait for your government to fix anything. They can’t do it…”
The retired teachers in your Presbyterian church sounds wonderful. Charity is a wonderful thing. It isn’t universally available though. The government has an obligation to fix the school system. It isn’t a kindness. People are being robbed of their hard-earned money by local and state governments, paying millions of dollars and not getting the education they are paying for.
BUCKY…
You go off on tangents about college and student loans which have absolutely nothing to do with the thread. Your brother Gar probably does not teach in an elementary school or public high school, correct? These private schools will obviously have computers, space and insurance. Parents will likely have to buy the books or they can be bought second hand.
Please don’t paraphrase to avoid the topic of my posts. The teachers may care about the Cities and the children, but if they were getting the job done the whole voucher program would be a non-issue. You can care all you want, without the skills or the assets to get the job done, you will fail.
I took high school and college biology and chemistry, giving me a small background in medicine. My love for my wife and daughter are without parallel. I cannot, out of love alone fix a broken arm for either of them. I don’t have the skills or the medical equipment to do so.
Your rural argument is ridiculous, of course no one will build a school for three students, that isn’t even worth a keystroke in response. And I am not sure what school you went to but Latin was never an option for me. And why do you think a good education is tough? We aren’t talking about MIT prep, I pointed that out, we are talking about a good, well rounded education. It isn’t Ivy League Prep School, those are 10K or more per year. It is a good education as opposed to currently available bad educations.
The current system doesn’t work for the failing schools in high concentrations of poor. In Maryland they have continuously thrown more good money at a problem to get limited results. If the teachers, who I am sure love the children and want to teach them, could succeed the voucher program would NOT BE AN ISSUE.
I have already explained in painstaking detail that the failing schools and school boards CAN’T fix the problems. If they could, they would do so. But they aren’t about to admit their inability and since many Boards of Education are separate from other government spending, they can pretty much do whatever they want. If it is different in your State, if you have good schools, good for you. Your schools will not be able to participate, nor will they need to participate.
But don’t punish people who have NO CHOICE but to leave their children in a cycle of failure because of your own hardened heart. If they could teach these kids, then why aren’t they?
Pigs In Space… you contradict yourself… You say in one paragraph that there was no problem getting into the >10K a year school and in another paragraph you say that they can choose their students. Well, which one is it? I will tell you that the top private schools in these parts are very selective. But the top private schools are not the issue, they won’t be available to the poor who will be exercising these vouchers anyway.
RE: Parental involvement. If what you assert is true, there is no need to fear vouchers because they will be a non-issue. It will be a program that exists on paper, but does nothing. The voucher program will not benefit students in public schools with high parental involvement (BTW, this was in an earlier post of mine) Those schools are doing well and are thus not eligible. Only the failing schools would be eligible, the ones that lack parental involvement.
We can’t turn our backs on the children that do not have active parents. It is easy to point a finger in a middle-class society. Are you really willing to punish a child because their parent(s) are not interested in their childrens’ scholastic success? This program is not for people who would do anything to ensure their children’s future. It isn’t for those parents who will get involved with their children. It is for children who have no option, no alternative but to continue in a failing education system that is going to limit their abilities at every turn. It is for children with parents who are more concerned about getting their next meal or next fix than their children’s education.
I won’t address California’s law because it is completely irrelevant as we are discussing the federal voucher program.
I have posted this earlier, but will repeat it for you.
The competition is that if your school fails you will loose students and funding. Keep in mind, children are not forced to leave a failing public school, they are simply given an option. They can commute to another public school. They can go to a private school. It is about options. Why is there a fear of poor people having options? Because they might take their kids from a school that continuously fails their students and put them in one where they might get a good education? That is the goal my friends.
This competition will force the administration to either put the money in the classrooms and get results or close down. I don’t believe that the Board of Education doesn’t want the kids to do well, they are just so used to keeping half the money in administration that they can’t get beyond their self-preservative policies. Giving them more money to misspend is not the solution. A voucher program can force them to get results or suffer the ultimate failure of bureaucratic elimination.
**
I could have SWORN that I saw people with ample reasons of their own that vouchers were not a cure… I guess I just can’t “open my mind,” huh… :rolleyes:
**
Well, the debate was always that it reeked of socialism, but it took the Great Depression for people to realize that the benefits outweighed the drawbacks.
Not that I want to debate if SS was a good idea, but the fact is that the country was in pretty desperate straits before we got SS passed. Is our education system en masse as bad as the country as a whole was in the '30s?
That’s a tough argument to make… Room for improvement? Sure! Glaring issues that should be adressed on local and national levels? Absolutely! But saying that the schools are as bad as a crippling, decade-long depression is inaccurate, I think.
**
-
This is contradictory. You say that the government has an obligation to fix the school system, but then you propose they do this by sending people away from public schools and into private ones?
-
What education are they “paying for,” exactly?
**
Well, let’s see here… The job is and has always been known as being low in pay. But instead of spending money on their salaries - attracting better teachers, keeping good ones, or to get teachers the tools they need to do the job well - you siphon money directly FROM THEM.
I fail to see how punishing teachers, which is pretty much what you are directly saying above, helps anyone involved - students, teachers, the schools in general.
**
I have yet to see how the education that kids get is bad. I see our test scores lacking compared to other countries, but then I hear that those tests are taken by everyone here and only be select kids (i.e. “the smart kids”) in other places and I have to say it’s not surprising we come in the middle!
I see people on this very board who are in public schools - sanibelman comes most easily to mind, but there are others - who are doing just fine in public schools.
So, I need proof that our education system is so horrible right now, it is beyond repair. Because when we start telling people that not having a choice to leave the public schools is horrible and that we need to punish teachers for the horrible jobs they are doing, I want more than your word for it that we are that desperate right now.
**
I’m sorry, but later in this very post you claim:
As such, I don’t think it is wise for you start talking about what Maryland does unless you want to talk about what California is doing (and is trying to do).
**
No, what I have seen you do is akin to Chicken Little. You screaming that the sky is falling does not facts make.
**
Why can’t it be both? Why couldn’t it have been no problem for that individual getting in because they MET the high standards of the school?
**
Wait… Doesn’t that totally defeat the purpose?
I mean, voucher advocates scream and yell about how poor people don’t have the choice to get into private schools, and this gives them this choice.
So now you’re saying that schools won’t be available to the poor anyway?
Talk about contradicting ones self…
**
You seem to forget that even in schools where everything is nifty, there will be parents who want their kids to be in a place where their kids get spiritual training, or other reasons wholly unrelated to quality of education.
You seem to forget that even if nobody took their kids out that the schools would still lose funding. You have to budget these things. You don’t just say, “Oh, well Mrs. Jones, we will just cut you a check from the money we would have spent on Billy since you don’t want Billy to come here?” Are you that naive about how this would have to be implemented on a local and national level?
**
What next then… Have mandatory tutors to help them withb homework because th parents are not doing it like they should? Garnish the income of all parents who do not care to set aside money for their kids college education? After all, they should be more interested in their children going to college, right? Where do you draw the line and why must we ask the government to be a baby sitter for "bad’ parents? Why do I have to pay for someone elses kids education with my tax dollars, which is what this leads to?
**
And this will make schools better… How?
**
No. The goal, my friend, is BETTER SCHOOLS. I still have not seen any evidence that couchers will cause this, and I have seen ample evidence that it would only make things worse.
You, of course, have some kind of citation for this eggregious self-preserving spending of funds by administrators as a national problem, I assume…
Yer pal,
Satan
*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, two weeks, 15 hours, 52 minutes and 50 seconds.
7906 cigarettes not smoked, saving $988.31.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 6 days, 10 hours, 50 minutes.
I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!*
“Do you think I couldn’t get one of the best teachers in the country for $35-40k?”
Well, the NEA web site list the average teachers salary in the US for 1998-1999 as $40,582, so yes, I think you’ll have a problem getting someone with a master’s degree and an excellent reputation teaching high school science for between $35-40k. My friends who teach in public schools (and teach things like Art and English) with masters degrees make mid-40s, in Minnesota which is below the national average.
Ok, I found this, well not really found since it was a link on my starting page but any check this out, another window will arise, click education.
Basically Dubya’s proposal would take Title 1 funds from already poor performing schools and transfer that money to a $1500 voucher (which presumably states have to match, but I don’t see it there)which could be used for private school, attending another public school in a different area, or charter schools.
OK, now do I have objections? Well it’s not enough (IMO)to significantly make a difference, except maybe attending schools another public school, to which I think Satan provided a good thought for consideration. Also, if they’re in such dire need, why the three year wait, before it’s availible?
Basically not much for me to sink my teeth into.
Ok, I found this, well not really found since it was a link on my starting page but any check this out, another window will arise, click education.
Basically Dubya’s proposal would take Title 1 funds from already poor performing schools and transfer that money to a $1500 voucher (which presumably states have to match, but I don’t see it there)which could be used for private school, attending another public school in a different area, or charter schools.
OK, now do I have objections? Well it’s not enough (IMO)to significantly make a difference, except maybe attending schools another public school, to which I think Satan provided a good thought for consideration. Then there are also the funding problems I’ve already mentioned i.e, how does taking money, make them better off. Also, if they’re in such dire need, why the three year wait, before it’s availible?
Basically not much for me to sink my teeth into.
Satan, I get a little emotional over this issue when people go off the track of what the OP is about. (Bush’s voucher program, not any State programs) So forgive me if I lash out sometimes at people who would rather criticize a program for it’s origin than debate the merits of the program. I am in no way a proponent of Bush, but from what I have read of the program it is an excellent program.
Please show me a valid reason why vouchers is not a cure and I will show you equally valid reasons why it is. :rolls eyes right back at you: BTW, I have addressed every valid reason why it wouldn’t work and have yet to hear someone provide any reasoning to back up their argument ever since it came to light that this program is ONLY for the students of failing schools.
**
“Is our education system en masse as bad as the country as a whole was in the '30s?”
Well, Satan, please look into the voucher program. It isn’t an entire overhaul and replacement of public education. It is exactly that kind of reasoning, based upon a lack of correct information that is forming a negative opinion towards the voucher system. Students in passing public schools WILL NOT BE ELIGIBLE… PLEASE READ THIS… PLEASE SEE THIS… PLEASE REALIZE THAT WITHOUT THIS PREMISE, THE ENTIRE VOUCHER SYSTEM IS AS YOU SUGGEST, NOT A GOOD PROGRAM. IT IS ONLY TO PROVIDE THOSE IN A BAD SCHOOL DISTRICT WITH AN OPTION UNTIL/IF EVER, THEIR PUBLIC SCHOOL GETS ITS ACT TOGETHER.
“But saying that the schools are as bad as a crippling, decade-long depression is inaccurate, I think.”
Do you then suggest that the only need for any change in government is necessary if we have a crippling decade-long depression? Why don’t we just take all the Congressman and fire them until we suffer another great depression then? We evidently have all the laws we need… the Judicial system can handle the rest.
If you don’t think having double digit percentages of students in failing schools graduate without the ability to read at a fourth grade level is a tragedy, I have no reason to argue support for vouchers any further with you. If you can’t understand that an education is the only way to get people off a system of welfare that does nothing but cyclically keep their families dependent on a system that fails them, I cannot reason with you further.
**
“1) This is contradictory. You say that the government has an obligation to fix the school system, but then you propose they do this by sending people away from public schools and into private ones?”
I don’t propose that at all… perhaps that is how you read the voucher system or want other people to read it so you can make your points. The voucher system is in no way to close down public schools. It is to give the children a choice and their parents the option to send them to a school where they have a fair and decent shot at getting an education.
“2) What education are they “paying for,” exactly?”
You do realize that education makes up the majority of state and local spending don’t you? The government is taxing to provide an education. If they fail to provide that education, continuously, over years of time, as has been happening in some schools, the parents aren’t getting their what the government has promised them for their tax dollars.
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“Well, let’s see here… The job is and has always been known as being low in pay. But instead of spending money on their salaries - attracting better teachers, keeping good ones, or to get teachers the tools they need to do the job well - you siphon money directly FROM THEM.”
How? The good teachers will be in higher demand than ever and thus making more money than ever. Now, the really crappy teachers who have been hanging onto their jobs because of Unions and tenure, they may be SOL. But the good teachers, the only ones anyone wants teaching their kids, will be making more money than ever as the schools compete for them.
“I fail to see how punishing teachers, which is pretty much what you are directly saying above, helps anyone involved - students, teachers, the schools in general.”
That is absolutely not what I say anywhere ever. Quite distantly the opposite. Noone is punishing teachers, they are saving children. The allegation that this has anything to do with teachers depicts a lack of understanding about who this program is for.
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“I have yet to see how the education that kids get is bad.”
You are evidently living in a charmed State with a great public school system. This voucher system wouldn’t affect me and my family at all, we have a great public school system in the suburbs. What it does is offer an opportunity to the children of parents who cannot afford to move out to the burbs. If you don’t accept that the plan is ONLY for the poor, depressed, and failing school areas, then you can’t possibly see the benefits of it.
“I see people on this very board who are in public schools - sanibelman comes most easily to mind, but there are others - who are doing just fine in public schools.”
I went to public school. I got a wonderful education. I want other children to get the same wonderful education I got. They aren’t getting it in some schools. Remember, this program gives them the option to go to ANOTHER PUBLIC SCHOOL. Also, this doesn’t force anyone out of the public school of their district, they can stay in the failing school if they want.
“So, I need proof that our education system is so horrible right now, it is beyond repair. Because when we start telling people that not having a choice to leave the public schools is horrible and that we need to punish teachers for the horrible jobs they are doing, I want more than your word for it that we are that desperate right now.”
A. Look at the passing rate of any public school in a depressed inner-city neighborhood. There is your proof. Yes, there will be exceptions but few and far between. This has nothing to do with the schools that perform well. This voucher program is only for the students of school systems that fail them over and over again, year after year.
Here are a few examples for you:
Keep in mind that the problem is with the differential moreso than the percentages. Different testing in different States will lead to State differentials.
MARYLAND:
http://www.msde.state.md.us/MSDEBulletins/1999/bulletin10-18.html
CHICAGO:
http://acct.multi1.cps.k12.il.us/
CALIFORNIA:
http://207.87.22.181/starcomp/cSCHOOL.idc
B. I have in no way, shape or form asserted that not having a choice to leave public schools is horrible. I have asserted that keeping a child in a school system that fails generation after generation of children is horrible.
C. There is no punishment for teachers anywhere in the voucher system. That is the most untrue assertion I have seen on this subject. The teachers would benefit, unless they suck as a teacher, then they shouldn’t be teaching. The ones who will suffer will be the administrative bureaucrats sucking off a system and allowing it to continue to fail the children.
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“I’m sorry, but later in this very post you claim:”
“As such, I don’t think it is wise for you start talking about what Maryland does unless you want to talk about what California is doing (and is trying to do).”
I’m not sorry, it’s okay. There is a big difference there. I was talking about Maryland in reference to the federal government historically not having a say in the education systems of the States. I made no references to a voucher program in Maryland. The California voucher program is a completely different animal than the federal program and thus is not comparable in any way shape or form.
If we were debating the California plan or any other State plan, I would gladly entertain such arguments. But we are debating Bush’s federal voucher program, so the discussion should be based upon that.
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“No, what I have seen you do is akin to Chicken Little. You screaming that the sky is falling does not facts make.”
I have provided several links concerning the failing school system in my State and others. In this post, I have included reports by the States which will always take the most flattering position possible. Every State I have seen has failing schools. If you do just a little bit of searching on your own, I am sure you can find the testing results of failing schools close to you.
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Why can’t it be both? Why couldn’t it have been no problem for that individual getting in because they MET the high standards of the school?
Fair enough, my apologies Pigs in Space, you were obviously addressing the expensive Prep school assertion I made about ‘strings’ which is not always the case.
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"Wait… Doesn’t that totally defeat the purpose?
I mean, voucher advocates scream and yell about how poor people don’t have the choice to get into private schools, and this gives them this choice.
So now you’re saying that schools won’t be available to the poor anyway?
Talk about contradicting ones self…"
Absolutely not. Thou dost disagree a bit too much. I do not contradict myself at all. There are plenty of private schools around 3-4K per year. Where they don’t exist, they will pop up to meet demand if there is any. No, the voucher system is not going to let a poor person go to Harvard Prep, but it will give them a chance to go to a good public school or a decent private school if they are in a continuously failing public school.
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"You seem to forget that even in schools where everything is nifty, there will be parents who want their kids to be in a place where their kids get spiritual training, or other reasons wholly unrelated to quality of education.
You seem to forget that even if nobody took their kids out that the schools would still lose funding. You have to budget these things. You don’t just say, “Oh, well Mrs. Jones, we will just cut you a check from the money we would have spent on Billy since you don’t want Billy to come here?” Are you that naive about how this would have to be implemented on a local and national level?"
You seem to have not read anything I have written except the sound bytes you selectively choose to read. Let me say this once more, really slowly for you…
IF THE PUBLIC SCHOOL IN YOUR DISTRICT IS NOT FAILING, YOU CANNOT USE THE VOUCHER PROGRAM.
Did you get it that time? Did it finally sink in?
That is the proposal by GW Bush. Not a universal voucher program, but one specifically for those children stuck in failing public schools.
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"What next then… Have mandatory tutors to help them withb homework because th parents are not doing it like they should? Garnish the income of all parents who do not care to set aside money for their kids college education? After all, they should be more interested in their children going to college, right? Where do you draw the line and why must we ask the government to be a baby sitter for “bad’ parents? Why do I have to pay for someone elses kids education with my tax dollars, which is what this leads to?”
You already pay for someone else’s kids education with your tax dollars. If you don’t realize this, once again the entire debate is wasted on you. You don’t think there are programs in place, paid by your tax dollars to send poor children to college? You didn’t know that your tax dollars pay for tutoring? Maybe you are living in a different country than I am in. You realize we are talking about the United States of America right?
The argument is not for replacing parental college tuition savings or parent/children time with tutors. It is replacing parental influence on the school system. Once again, I ask that you read my posts instead of pulling sound bytes. But perhaps that is too much to ask.
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“And this will make schools better… How?”
Evidently, I am wasting my keystrokes, I thought I explained it in detail. If you don’t agree, that is fine, everyone has an opinion. Some are just wrong. (j/k)
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“No. The goal, my friend, is BETTER SCHOOLS. I still have not seen any evidence that couchers will cause this, and I have seen ample evidence that it would only make things worse.”
So a better school is not one that provides a good education? You completely lost me and the rest of the rational world there. Well, if there are no BETTER SCHOOLS, there won’t be anywhere to voucher option out to now will there? If all public/private schools offer the same education, the voucher system will be 100% irrelevant and noone will ever use it. So, why not do it?
“You, of course, have some kind of citation for this eggregious self-preserving spending of funds by administrators as a national problem, I assume…”
If it isn’t a national problem, the vouchers won’t be a national option. You continue to assume the vouchers will be available to everyone. If that is the case, then I concur, it is a bad idea. It may just be my public school education at fault, but I think the big words are used incorrectly in the above paragraph.
I, of course, have some kind of predisposition for this egregious self-preserving spending of funds by administrators as a national problem. Your proclamation is veracious.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
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I have several concerns bout this:
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What criteria do we use to decide “failing schools?” If we use standardized tests, we open up that whole can of worms about biases inherent in them. In addition…
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If we do overlook the biases, we then start having schools teaching students how to pass standardized tests instead of simply learning. This is not a good thing, and it has come under increased scrutiny in locations where they suggest such tests to be the yeardstick in which kids are measured.
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What about the person who wants the choice to go to a private school but are in a school that the goverment says is just dandy, but the PARENT (or STUDENT) feels differently for personal reasons. Why do they have LESS RIGHTS than their neighbors?
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What if a school is deemed “failing” and then it improves. Do all of the students who moved on have to go back there? If not, what of families with one kid in a private school… The school gets better, they have to have their kids in two different schools now?
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Are we just closing down “failing” schools? If so, where does improvment come in? What of good people in bad situations?
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What of schools that are “failing” not because of the facilty but because of the students? Here, we are telling underpaid, possibly very passionate people that they are not good enough, maybe because they are just in an area where the students don’t want to learn in numbers disproportionate to the rest of the country?
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What of the private institutions who do not WANT certain kids? What is the point of saying, “Oh sure, we can allow you to not be in the ‘failing’ school, but everyone else has the right to tell you you can’t go there either.” Where is the choice? And if the govdernment starts telling private institutions who they have to take, aren’t they no longer private?
I would like answers to all of these questions, please, as I don’t think any of them are bad concerns…
**
No. I was saying that extreme times might demand extreme responses, but I have yet to see evidence that the school system is wrecked on par with our ecomony during the Depression. Please show me otherwise…
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Cites?
Besides, all studies say that kids who are home-schooled do better in tests. As such, it is just as logical to legislate the abandoming of ALL schools, public and private, and to give money to all parents to teach their kids.
Do you think this would help? If you just look at “stats” and “studies” and “standardized test results,” it would. How do you think it would work in practice?
**
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If nobody is attending a school because parents have all taken them out, this effectively closes that school, yes?
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If the above scenerio is not allowed - maybe a limit on the number of defectors - how is this fairly implemented?
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This still does not answer the question as to how this is going to make things better.
**
How do you figure? This plan REMOVES MONEY from the schools. How does the subtraction of money equal more money for salaries?
You talk about getting rid of bad teachers. While a noble idea, look at this logical construct: We already have a poor teacher-to-student ratio in some cases. Eliminating schools, and teacher positions will only make that WORSE! And please do show me how this plan would create more teaching positions?
It wouldn’t. It would take them away.
**
With the amount of money that teachers get, I submit that people who fit this categorization is in the minority. Crappy teachers can be crappy at other things and make much more money for it and deal with a tenth of the bullshit, after all.
And even if this was a pervasive problem (which I would like to see evidence of, by the way), why can’t we fix the problem with less drastic means?
**
Why is this happening? Prospective teachers would find themselves constantly under a microscope if in the public schools. A perfectly good teacher could be on his or her ass because they taught at a “failing” school. A shitty teacher can be held up by GOOD teachers in another institution.
Competition = Better is not always correct. Things got better in some ways and worse in others when we deregulated airlines and telephone lines… To assume that all we need to do is allow some competition that everything would be nifty is naive.
In addition, the public school systems are already competing against private schools for teachers. In spite of this, public school teachers have not been magically getting “better” because they hoped to teach in a private institution, have they? Hell, youc an’t even prove to me that private school teachers are “better” right now en masse! I mean, I wouldn’t want to learn science in a Southern Baptist school…
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Bullshit. Read what you yourself wrote. You are saying that teachers MUST BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE! One is held accountable for errors, generally. And one is punished for these things.
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There is debate the money would be that big a help for a poor family.
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You yourself said that some schools would STILL be off-limits to some kids.
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Who is going to make the private schools take kids they might not want?
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If parents are opting to bus their kids to “the good public school in the suburbs,” what happens when this school has twice as many pupils as it was designed to have?
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If we limit the numbers to avoid the above, again, how do we do this fairly?
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Ah, so what you’re saying is we help the poor so much so as to actually have their "rights’ infringe on the rights of others such as the middle class?
I guess making the schools better in poor areas is too complicated a way to go about doing this, huh?
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Then fix those schools.
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You do realize, I hope, how stupid that sounds rolling off the tongue?
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This makes it even easier! Since we are NOT in the equivalent of The Great Depression - more like we have a few cities with high unemployment - we help those areas by MAKING THOSE SCHOOLS BETTER!
We can also make scholarships for the best and brightest High Schoolers who wish to go to private schools that already want them - and for all I know, they are already in existance.
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I see several scenerios where teachers are being punished:
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The “good” teacher at a “failing” school that closes thanks to the exodus of students.
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The “good” teacher at the school they all go to, sho suddenly has several more classes, all of which are larger, to handle the extra influx of students.
Also, several other scenerios I ask about above would directly affect teachers on a regular basis, making it sure seem like a punishment - especially when they are making piss-poor wages to begin with.
But sure, I suppose that’s a way to get great teachers… :rolleyes:
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And you know this will happen… How, exactly?
And what evidence do you have that these schools that suddenly sprout up will be all that better than the public ones?
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I think you are deluding yourself here.
Either you are making an even playing field, or you are not. Youc an’t say, “well, we’ll make you even with these people, but not those,” or at least you shouldn’t.
Hey - We can have a voucher program! When the mid-level private schools start to fail (why wouldn’t at least some of them?) we can give even MORE vouchers to get the kids into thre BEST schools!
Can you see how silly this is? I guess not…
Yer pal,
Satan
*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, two weeks, 19 hours, 17 minutes and 30 seconds.
7912 cigarettes not smoked, saving $989.02.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 20 minutes.
I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!*
Thank you, Satan for pointing out the difference between selective and connections. And thank you JustAnotherGuy for your apology. Keep in mind, careless reading of your posts is what you’ve accused everyone who disagrees with you of doing. You might want to take it easy before you do it again.
I’d like to make a couple more points, seeing as it came up. Yes, I got into prep school through hard work, and the fact that I graduated a year early should have tipped you off, even if I didn’t make it explicit. As Satan guessed in a later post, many of the top level (and I mean the top couple dozen, at least) have scholarships and programs to reach out to “disadvantaged urban youth”, some of whom I knew in my time there. Many of these schools have endowments larger than small colleges.
My point is that these are precisely the parents who won’t take advantage of the vouchers, for precisely those reasons. Many of them won’t have a clue how to get the vouchers, even if they know they exist. As for the ones who don’t care about their kids, what makes you think they’ll care enough to go after the vouchers? They won’t take the time to check out schools, fill out two applications (one for the school, one for the program), and probably go through a lot more paperwork. In other words, vouchers cannot help this problem, and will only make it worse, because now even fewer of the parents will be trying to help the school.
I haven’t been here long, but even I know that topics evolve as they grow - that’s considered a good thing. More people have posted questions and opinions about specific programs, and CA in particular, than have called for the discussion to be limited to one program.
I asked for DEFINITE, CONCRETE answers, not the same old “competition will force them to get better” line. Should they get rid of half the administators? Should they fix their facilities? Should the teachers use their own money to buy supplies and work after hours with no pay? No wait, they already do that.
Please tell us where you got the figure you quoted. You do have a good, unbiased source for that, don’t you? And a lot of the money in administration goes toward complying with state-mandated policies, dealing with difficult parents, etc., things they have no control over that aren’t going to go away.
DO NOT suggest money should be taken out of educator’s salaries. My mother is a Superintendent with >25 years in ed. (~10 as a Superintendent) and 2 master’s and a doctorate from Harvard. I’m an aerospace engineer with four years of experience and a bachelor’s, and I make about what she did 5 years ago. My first year out of college I made more than what the average teacher makes - not a first year teacher, and approximately what my Dad made with 20 years of experience and a doctorate (there were a few years of inflation between that, but not that much).
There are problems in schools, and they need to be fixed, but vouchers aren’t the way.
JAG: Only students from “failing schools” get the money- but do the private schools take the same test? Not here in CA, they are, by law, exempt from all such testing. So, a kid could go from a “failing public school” to an worse failing private school. How will that help?
Next, again, I have no input as to what private schools teach, and how it is taught. I have such input on public schools, which is why I pay my taxes with only the noramal complaining. It is manifestly unfair to force me to support schools which have an agenda I have no input into, and I am opposed. Many private schools teach “creation science”- not with MY tax dollars thank-you-very-much. A private school could very well teach nazism, with Hitlers works as the curriculum. I pay MY taxes so that others kids can go to school as an investment in my Nations future- and 'creation science" is NOT part of what I what them taught. Nor is religious intolerance- again a popular item.
Vouchers are like decieding that every one should donate to Churchs- and taking YOUR money to support MY Church. I don’t think so!