School Vouchers - Would they work?

[Satan]

*Originally posted by MilTan *

**Since vouchers will be used by parents to send kids to private schools, this amounts to public funding of private schools, right?

**

You would think so… The only way around this would be to claim that… Well, maybe… No, actually I can’t think of a way around it… JAG?

**If so, these funds could go to schools that do not allow students based on religion. As long as these schools are private, this is ok. But if voucher money begins to be spent on them, aren’t there some serious discrimination and SOCAS ramifications? **

Most likely, yes (unless someone can satisfactorilly explain how vouchers supplied by the government and going directly to a private school in lieu of public schooling is not the government paying for that schooling), which is yet another serious flaw in this and other similar plans.

In fact, with the plan the way JAG defends it, if you are in a community where there is a “failing” public school, nothing would stop a smart proselytizing religious sect from opening up a private academy, buying out any secular schools around (or those other schools might just voluntarily not participate in the plan anyway!), and with some money, muscle and might, this school would become the only school in town (unless you chose to "keep your kid in a “failing” school - this is an option many parents would like, according to JAG) and if enough kids leave the “failing” school, that school could be shut down.

In this case, it would mean that everyone in the community could be essentially forced to use their government vouchers to go to a religious school!

Please point out the flaws in the logic above because I see this as very plausible and certainly possible with the way this plan seems to be worded…

And frankly, this is just another in a line of problems this plan has. I mean, does Dubya even think these things through?

---

Yer pal,
Satan

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[Guinastasia]

Satan: Does Dubya even THINK period?

[single_files]

Just a few thoughts from someone with a child in private school. In my community, the public schools are not very diverse. Some are predominantly black and some predominantly white. I want her to have friends from different cultures and backgrounds, which is something I didn’t have as a child. It has taken an effort on my part to have the relaxed attitude with people that comes naturally to her.

As far as funding goes, vouchers wouldn’t change the situation in her school much at all. The kids that are there now, would still be there. The parents that can’t afford it (I am one of those. A single parent that drives an older vehicle and scrimps because this is important) would probably not be helped much because the school is already operating at a loss and would probably raise tuition. The teachers are being paid at a lower rate than in public schools, but yet seem more interested in the job of teaching.

Private schools do not necessarily produce better students. They are just a tool used by parents that are already more involved than most. It only makes sense that the same parents that are willing to sacrifice to pay for their childrens schooling are the same ones reading to the kids and taking them to the library and zoo and museums, not to mention carrying on meaningful conversations with them. Mine just got out of the tub and it’s story time.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Nice dodge, but the folks who are making these claims are not just the folks giving the tests in “failing” schools and districts. It’s also been something that has been suspected for a long time now by many people with different and no motivations towards any agenda.

Not a dodge at all. First, these tests vary from State to State, so you would need to be specific as to whose standards we are talking about. That is a potential weakness to the school voucher program, one that needs to be identified and has yet to be.

**As stated earlier, these tests have been in place since the 70s in Maryland and there are still significant failures, which I interpret as evidence teachers are NOT teaching to the tests.

**

First of all, this is a national policy we’re talking about - something you specifically said we should stick to, right? Why is your little block the be-all end-all here with that being the case?

Never said Maryland was the be-all end-all, just giving you your ever-so-heavily desired facts that negate your arguments. I don’t have the time to fish through all 50 states, pick any other and I’ll be happy to do the research for you.

Secondly, what punishments have come around for all this time that these tests were being used? AFAIK, the tests have been used for informational purposes and have had no ramifications for bad scores or benefits for good ones. As such, there is no motivation to “teach the test.”

I don’t know, these teachers supposedly have all this pride and you would think the schools would pick a curriculum to make their test scores look good so when people are deciding on a place to live they won’t shy away from them.

But there is that whole common sense issue that I suppose differs from one person to another.

However, when the motivation is there - in this case, motivation to keep a job and a community school together - that is whn the problem potentially can happen.

And if we keep doing things as we are perhaps some day a miracle will happen.

Thirdly, who cares how long the tests have been in use? Instead, we are jumping in to make these things a matter of life and death for the schools? Doesn’t seem prudent at all…

I disagree vehemently that this would be death for any schools, but we will just have to disagree on our view of the future and human nature.

While public education may seem socialist, it is not nearly as bad IMHO as telling so-called public entities what they should charge. Even if this was deemed constitutional,

How is telling someone how much you will pay for a service in any way unconstitutional? I do it in private industry all the time it is a very capitalist practice. I.E. I will lease office space for $10/square foot… give me my options. You should rethink your view on that one, but opinions vary.

“Yes, you’re in a failing school, Mr. Jones, but we don’t have any alternatives for you. Here’s your worthles voucher and have a great day!”

Which is much worse than “Yes, you’re in a failing school, Mr. Jones.”

People have assured you that $3,000 a year is not enough to replace a public education and most private tuition costs even before things which wouldn’t get paid for anyone but the parent in a private venue - such as transportation, many supplies and even lunch.

This FACT has not deterred you.

$1,500 federal voucher matched double by the State $3,000 equals $4,500… I was attempting to show it could be done for less and came in around $3,600 instead of $3,000 as I had thrown together in my head. My apologies to the mathematical fuzziness society of America.

I could play around and point out that we could give parents who wanted to home school a lot more than three grand, since this would mean we no longer HAVE schools and all that money could go right back to the parents, but I shan’t belabour the point which you don’t seem to get:

If your only yardstick is standardized tests, total home schooling subsidized by the government is a BETTER idea than private school vouchers. And since one can see the folly in such logic easilly, why can’t the folly be seen in the voucher program?

Once again you are wrong. Home schooling is not a BETTER idea than private school vouchers. With a private school voucher you can look around for a good school with good teachers. Parents are stuck with what they have. A public school with no options is better than no school options at all. So I disagree with you very much on that point thank you.

**What difference would it make to the current system if there is nothing better out there? It takes away no students, no money, no teachers.

**

How so? Where in this plan is there money to make the “failing” schools better? If there is none, and in fact all evidence points in the direction that we are essentially abandoning these institutions, we ARE taking away money (unless you think we would put as much money into schools where the students are leaving), teachers (unless you think that schools with less students would keep the same amount of faculty) and THE WHOLE POINT of vouchers is for students to be taken away if they want!

How so? if noone leaves no money leaves… perhaps you didn’t understand what I was saying.

How would one prepare for the unknown? Really, JAG, this is common sense. If an area can suddenly be claimed a “voucher zone,” the district is suddenly looking a lot differently than before, don’t you think? You don’t see that a district suddenly having a portion of it’s students - and ultimately, an unknown portion - in different private schools, while others are going to public schools in other districts - would be impossible to predict? And that this impossibility would make it impossible to have the RIGHT public facilities for the RIGHT number of kids at the RIGHT times?

Sorry, I’ve read this three times and still don’t understand what you are saying, please explain it again?

[quote]
Well, let’s see…

I am able to show reasonable cause for the things I am saying might happen based upon logic, past events, human nature and did I mention common sense?

How about some evidence that your utopia is even remotely feasible, huh? [\quote]

I think it was provided quite adequately. You are of course entitled to your own level of common sense.

[quote]
Some of the poorest areas in this country are in Appalacia. Failing schools are not a ghetto problem exclusively. Thinking so is pretty much a prejudiced view of the problem.[\quote]

Population? Number of schools? Number of schools that would pop up to provide an alternative?

Yes, I do have a prejudiced view of the problem. I see it on a regular basis.

If everyone in a “failing school” can potentially leave, why do you think only one will choose to? And if the numbers are going to be so small as this, again I ask, what’s the point?

If only one child can come out of a ghetto and go to college because of it, why not?

You cannot offer any evidence as to why your prediction seems a likely outcome? Then you concede the point.

Learn how to debate.

Yes oh Master Debater

**Now, if we can just increase your property taxes to pay for it all. Which I wouldn’t be objectionable to if it works. But a question, honestly, why hasn’t any or all of this been done and succeeded over the past 15 years? or the last 8?

**

Because politicians like Dubya have other motivations besides just helping the kids and the system. Because it’s sexier to say “vouchers” instead of saying “work harder, be better parents and pay a little more money to invest in our futures.” Because it’s easier to say, “it can’t be fixed” than to actually fix it.

Sorry, I didn’t see Dubya in Congress or the White House over the last 8 years. As I said earlier, if your beef is with Dubya, I don’t like him either. I like the plan though. I also thought the Republicans were the ‘family values’ Party. Come on, you want to throw billions of dollars as a fix and the voucher program offers a low to no cost. Don’t then say ‘work harder, be better parents and pay a little more moneey to invest in our futures’, major cop-out Satan. I expect more from you.

Ah. So go for a plan riddled with inconsistancies and layered with potential problems which makes the whole thing dubious because it’s the best thing out there. Great attitude.

I don’t see the inconsistencies, a few potential problems which would be ironed out in any final draft as they always are with any new law.

What, people in “depressed neighborhoods” are banned from attending college?

Not at all, just saying that the same schools that do poorly on the standardized tests are, believe it or not, not sending the vast majorities of students to college. You are familar with entrance exams are you not?

**Discussing books and supplies, a few hundred dollars a year per classroom isn’t much to siphon out of any State’s budget, so why hasn’t it been done?

**

Ask your congressman.

I have asserted that it is because of the bureaucracy. You ask your congressman. grin

Isn’t that exactly what vouchers do when they tell private schools that they have to operate as public schools, tell them what they can and cannot charge for their schooling, and tell parents who want their kids to be in a private school that they can’t do so for three years and if the government (not the parents) view the public schools as fine, they can’t do it then either?

Nope, but we don’t agree on anything about this matter.

[JustAnotherGuy]

**Since vouchers will be used by parents to send kids to private schools, this amounts to public funding of private schools, right?

**

You would think so… The only way around this would be to claim that… Well, maybe… No, actually I can’t think of a way around it… JAG?
[/quote]

Yes, that is correct, which is why the schools that participate have to eliminate any religious schooling requirements. This problem is currently being litigated by the ACLU in Florida, the plan that GW’s plan is based upon. It’s outcome should affect the viability of the school voucher program. I await the results.

[Satan]

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *

**Not a dodge at all. First, these tests vary from State to State, so you would need to be specific as to whose standards we are talking about.

**

I’m sorry… I thought we were talking about national standardized tests here… Aren’t we?

**Never said Maryland was the be-all end-all, just giving you your ever-so-heavily desired facts that negate your arguments.

**

Which does not change the facts that, since we are talking about a NATIONAL law here, that the law should be condusive throughout the nation, not just in your city.

And this does not change the fact that some of your points do NOT work on a national level, and some objections which might have an answer in your locality aare not so easily answered in other regions.

**I don’t know, these teachers supposedly have all this pride and you would think the schools would pick a curriculum to make their test scores look good so when people are deciding on a place to live they won’t shy away from them.

**

Translation: There have been no real ramifications from the test results, good or bad. They have just been used for statistical purposes. And now, this plan takes these tests which were used to cull information and make them the be-all end-all of how we judge our schools.

**But there is that whole common sense issue that I suppose differs from one person to another.

**

So you are saying that common sense tells you that the way kids are taught in relation to these tests would not change an iota when you compare them as being information for statistics and the sole indicator for whether a school continues to exist? You can honestly say this?

**And if we keep doing things as we are perhaps some day a miracle will happen.

**

Why does one need a miracle to save the schools? I mean aside from protecting themfrom people who endorse plans with more holes in them than swiss cheese?

**I disagree vehemently that this would be death for any schools, but we will just have to disagree on our view of the future and human nature.

**

So you’re saying that under this plan, a “failing” school will not close? How does a school stay open when there are no students because their parents waved vouchers in the faces of the faculty there and took their kids elsewhere?

**How is telling someone how much you will pay for a service in any way unconstitutional? I do it in private industry all the time it is a very capitalist practice.

**

I’m sorry, but I was unaware that you personally were acting on behalf of the US government when tyou set your prices.

In any event, it is a minor point. I said exactly that even if telling private businesses how they had to conduct those businesses was cleared as constitutional (as in, it’s debatable either way), there are a million other things which go wrong with this feel-good plan.

**Which is much worse than “Yes, you’re in a failing school, Mr. Jones.”

**

No, it’s exactly the same. Oh, except you left out, “but we are trying to fix this school, Mr. Jones.” This is not something which would be said with the voucher program.

**Once again you are wrong. Home schooling is not a BETTER idea than private school vouchers.

**

You are missing the point, Sparky. Let me try again, slowly - Do try and keep up here.

The only thing you are basing vouchers on is the results of standardized tests. Period.

If this is the only criteria we use, than this same exact data says that closing all schools and having all kids be home-schooled is a good idea.

Now, you find this ridiculous! You protest that we cannot look at this simply with these tests! That there are many other factors to consider!

Well, that is exacty my fucking point, because that is EXACTLY what you endorse doing with the voucher program!

**How so? if noone leaves no money leaves… perhaps you didn’t understand what I was saying.

**

Ah, so you are endorsing a plan as an ideal fix, but one of your ways to make it work in the case of a valid concern is by showing examples where nobody takes advantage of this plan?

Fucking brilliant, man…

How would one prepare for the unknown? Really, JAG, this is common sense. If an area can suddenly be claimed a “voucher zone,” the district is suddenly looking a lot differently than before, don’t you think? You don’t see that a district suddenly having a portion of it’s students - and ultimately, an unknown portion - in different private schools, while others are going to public schools in other districts - would be impossible to predict? And that this impossibility would make it impossible to have the RIGHT public facilities for the RIGHT number of kids at the RIGHT times?

**Sorry, I’ve read this three times and still don’t understand what you are saying, please explain it again?

**

I don’t see how I can get any simpler than what I said. If anyone else wants to try and explain to JAG that one cannot rezone an area effectively when they have no idea what that area is going to look like demographics-wise, please do so for me.

**I think it was provided quite adequately. You are of course entitled to your own level of common sense.

**

Every single benefit of this voucher idea has a dozen negative possible outcomes. You have been caught making seperate statements which directly contradict each other. You have even tried to defend this program by saying that the problems will be taken care of by peopel NOT TAKING ADVANTAGE OF IT? And you make a snide reference to MY common sense?

**Population? Number of schools? Number of schools that would pop up to provide an alternative?

**

And these details matter how to the statement that different regions will have different needs? Or do you think what will work in urban Baltimore will work exactly the same as in rural West Virginia? That the same exact things - such as other options, public transportation, other public schools within a reasonable distance, and everything else are the exact same thing?

**Yes, I do have a prejudiced view of the problem. I see it on a regular basis.

**

And this view does not take into account the fact that every location is different. What might be fine and dandy in Baltimore might not work in bigger places like New York or rural areas in Montana, don’t you think? And your explanations that answers a concern in your area (say, transportation) will answer that same concern in tthose other places the same way?

**If only one child can come out of a ghetto and go to college because of it, why not?

**

I’ll bet that under the current system, this is happening already. I thought the object was to create opportunity for more people here?

**Yes oh Master Debater

**

It’s not my fault that you can’t back up your statements.

**As I said earlier, if your beef is with Dubya, I don’t like him either. I like the plan though.

**

I have not said a single bad thing in this thread about Dubya, the man.

Oh, I did say that his plan bites. That I’ve said. And demonstrated to be chock full of holes, problems and overall nothing resembling a plan which will help more than it hurts.

**Come on, you want to throw billions of dollars as a fix and the voucher program offers a low to no cost. Don’t then say ‘work harder, be better parents and pay a little more moneey to invest in our futures’, major cop-out Satan. I expect more from you.

**

Well, gee… I guess instead of fixing problems and working to make them better, we can implement pie-in-the-sky plans with a million things wrong with them, plans which have never worked elsewhere when implemented, plans which might very well be unconstitutional, and plans which essentially tear down a problem instead of trying to fix it…

Yeah, you’re right. I guess trying to fix something is a cop out. Far better to destroy it with no evidence that the results will be any better.

**I don’t see the inconsistencies, a few potential problems which would be ironed out in any final draft as they always are with any new law.

**

Right… For example, you say that this plan would avoid problems if people didn’t take advantage of it. That’s cartainly ironing them out…

**Not at all, just saying that the same schools that do poorly on the standardized tests are, believe it or not, not sending the vast majorities of students to college. You are familar with entrance exams are you not?

**

You are familiar with community colleges and state schools which will take just about anyone with a desire to learn and a HS diploma, are you not?

Nope, but we don’t agree on anything about this matter.

Yes. The difference is that I and others have raised a ton of objections to this plan and you have had to double-back on your own answers, answer problems by saying you hope they don’t come up even though the plan says they can, and that the best way to avoid these problems is to not participate in this plan that you love.

---

Yer pal,
Satan

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[Pigs_in_Space]

*me *
"I asked for DEFINITE, CONCRETE answers, not the same old
“competition will force them to get better” line.

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**You tell me as an opponent of the voucher system?
**

Well, I’ll go with Satan’s suggestions - I could quibble with a couple, but this post is going to be long anyway. Why do I have to come up with answers and you don’t? You claimed multiple times that competition would make things better, and I gave you a chance to elaborate.

*me *
Please tell us where you got the figure you quoted. You do have a good, unbiased source for that, don’t you?

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
I don’t know which figure you are referring to… … If you are referring to about half the money making it to the classroom, well it may be rhetoric, but it has been a long argued position against all the red tape and bureacracy of the public education system. Since the opposition (the public education bureaucracy) has never stepped up to the plate with the numbers that they have as to how much money gets into the classrooms, I have to assume that they do not disagree, but make excuses as to why it is that way. "complying with state-mandated policies, dealing with difficult parents, etc."

Yes, that’s the one. Well, if it’s been around a long time, and you haven’t heard anything else, it must be true. :rolleyes: Are you kidding? Do you really think that schools don’t have to account for every penny to the state? And where I grew up, and probably a lot other places, the budget is voted on by the municipality. That sounds very public to me. And my point was quoting a number without any knowledge of its basis or why it’s spent can be misleading. Unless you’re saying that the school shouldn’t comply with state-mandated policies.

*me *
"DO NOT suggest money should be taken out of educator’s salaries.

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
I don’t believe I said anything about reducing anyone’s salary, more like reducing some jobs.

No, but I had a feeling you would, and I wanted to head you off. And elsewhere in this same post you said:

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
Those who can do, those who cannot teach, I’m sure you’ve heard that before. They might love their teaching job, love getting a years salary for working 8 months out of the year, love all the holidays. If you annualize teachers salaries, it really isn’t such a bad deal.

It’s not quite the same thing, but I think that’s where you were headed - teachers get paid too much for what they do. By the way, most educators work part of the summer on lesson plans, preparing the classroom, etc. and they certainly work MUCH more than eight hours a day during the school year. You’d be surprised how much work it is.

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
Now as an aerospace engineer with four years of experience… correct me if I am wrong, mid 70s? six digits?

I wish. low-mid 60’s

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**And she is making a hell of alot of money isn’t she? smile She also went to Harvard, which implies your family comes from money, because who else can afford Harvard? **

My point was (I seem to say this to you a lot) this isn’t much money for that level of experience and education. Oh, and hard work.

You said that one needs connections to get into high level private schools. You were wrong. You have accused a number of the people who disagree with you of snobbery and racism. You were wrong again. You assume that only rich people can get into Harvard. And guess what? You’re wrong again.

My parents worked very, very hard for what they have and used very little money from their families - they were in the first generation to go to college. Actually, they even sent some money home. Not that being rich is a bad thing, but they weren’t.

For your information, Harvard, MIT, and most of the other top-level colleges and prep schools have need-blind admissions*, community outreach, and really good financial aid. No, there isn’t enough to get to everyone, but you certainly don’t have to be rich to go there. Hell, half the student body has some financial aid.** So wipe the smirk off your post.

*The people on the admissions committee have no idea of your fin. aid status.
**Yes I have a cite.
http://vpf-web.harvard.edu/factbook/99-00/page24.htm

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
Correct me if I am wrong, but I doubt she ever stepped foot in an inner-city school. If she did, she might figure out how to fix them, but she probably never will so the school is stuck in failure.

1. You assume that only inner-city schools are in need of fixing. That is incorrect.

2. You make an awful lot of assumptions.

3. She has set foot in inner-city schools, but she hasn’t worked in them. She used to work with special needs kids and at-risk kids. At-risk means borderline juvenile delinquents, some of whom went over the borderline. She also works to get women and minorities into educational administration. Does that meet your standards, or is inner-city the only word you care about?

*me *
“There are problems in schools, and they need to be fixed, but vouchers aren’t the way.”

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**Enlighten us, what is ‘the way’ that noone else has tried?
**

Satan said this better than I can, but here goes.

1. Give schools enough money to fix their buildings (some are falling apart around here, and we’re in a booming economy) and buy supplies. BTW, 1 new textbook is ~$75. Still think you can outfit a classroom on a few hundred dollars?
2. Give teachers the money and respect they deserve. They get way too little of each. Have programs to encourage college students and professionals go into teaching.
3. Get parents involved with their kids’ education through open houses, suggestions on how to help their kids, and meetings with the teachers. You could even give the parents continuing education where needed.
4. Get the communities involved in tutoring and in activities in school.
5. Reduce class size.
6. If standardized testing is used, remember that it doesn’t show the whole picture and make sure that the test is not biased. Also, make sure that you test what the kids should be learning, and don’t you make the kids learn what’s on the test (teaching to the test).
7. Don’t fall for quick fixes that work best in the voting booth. True problems will take a long time to truly solve. It’s not what anyone wants to hear, but it’s the truth.

[Gadarene]

First, JAG, nice work on the formatting. Much better. That being said, I still don’t think you quite see what Satan’s talking about when he refers to the dangers of “teaching to the test.” To illustrate the point, here’s an excerpt from a review of the book Contradictions of School Reform: Educational Costs of Standardized Testing by Linda McNeil. The review (Barbara Miner of The Progressive) notes that McNeil is co-director of the Center for Education at Rice University, and as such has been in a position to “see the trajectory of school reform in Houston, Texas, beginning with Ross Perot in the 1980s and on through the imposition of the Texas Assessment of Academic Skills (TAAS) test during the current administration of George W. Bush.” Miner then goes on to say this:

As every teacher knows, if you and your students are going to be evaluated on the basis of a single state test, the tendency will be to teach to that test. Because a principal’s pay is determined, in part, by the school’s performance on the TAAS test, some principals have blatantly turned their schools into test-prep centers, Publishers of test-prep materials will send consultants into schoo0ls, for a hefty price, “to help plan pep rallies, to ‘train’ teachers to use the TAAS-prep kits, and to ease the substitution of their TAAS-prep materials for the curriculum in classrooms where teachers stubbornly resist.” [Emphasis mine]

One teacher told how she had spent considerable time and money assembling books of importance to Latino culture, and her students responded enthusiastically to her initiative. “She was dismayed to see, upon returning one day from lunch, that the books for her week’s lessons had been set aside. In the center of her desk was a stack of test-prep booklets with a teacher’s guide, and a note saying, ‘Use these instead of your regular curriculum until after the TAAS.’ The TAAS test date was three months away.”

In her introduction to the review, which includes two other books–Standardized Minds by Peter Sacks, and Will Standards Save Public Education? by Deborah Meier–Miner refers to standardized tests as leading to a “dumbed-down curriculum that values rote memorization over in-depth thinking, exacerbates inequities for low-income students and students of color, and undermines true accountability among schools, parents, and the community.”

That sounds about right to me.

[Typo_Negative]

*Originally posted by redtail23 *
**
Monumental bureaucracy, egregious misconduct, horrendous inefficiency and outrageous ineffectiveness ONLY HAPPEN IN GOVERNMENT. Private corporations are totally immune to these problems, no matter how huge they become.

**

I laughed my butt off when I read this!!! We have obviously never worked together. Large corporations are not immune. Espescially if they have Government contracts.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Gee willickers Satan
You really put me in my place.
Those who are really interested in how the program WILL WORK can read my posts, those who want the old democratic line about the ifs and maybes of why it WON’T WORK can read Satan’s posts to their hearts content.

There has never been a mention of federal testing standards. The same standards would be used as are currently used in States and thus the States would in effect administer the federal voucher program.

demographics…districts. Again, common sense tells me that this is illegal, to base districting on demographics, but then I am for the voucher program and by your standards automatically shy of common sense.

I will say this though. If I were stuck due to my economic situation in a district with a school that taught my children to do nothing but slide through the system, I would welcome an opportunity to send them to another school. You, of course can argue that I would be a fool to do so or that it wouldn’t help me. I would prefer the option to your promises of a better education that I have been listening to all my life.

Yes, there are alot of uncertainties. Noone has seen the full program yet, nor have they seen any programs proposed by either candidate aside from some sound bytes. These details all get worked out in Congress before a law is passed. Any program will have loop holes and flaws, educational or otherwise, you are right, it is impossible to please the entire nation with one cookie cutter program. So shall we give up? Shall we surrender to inequalities and flaws in the system? I say no and hope that most of America agrees. I believe you will find that they do.

I can’t convince you how the program will work, you are so dead set against it you can’t see the possibilities. Very much like people who are against the welfare-to-work program or the Healthy Start program, educational opportunities for the underpriveledged. I can’t force feed to you the idea that children deserve better than what they are getting and your ideas, while wonderful, can still be implemented.

The assertion that nothing will be done to help the failing schools is a made-up and absurd allegation. Of course efforts will be made. Federal, State and Local funding will be used to fix these schools to keep the money in the system. If you don’t think the Board of Education is driven with a desire to keep their high salaries, I have no other assurances to offer you that they will do everything they can to fix these schools.

Beyond the rhetoric and the negatives is a program which has the potential to provide even one impoverished child with a better education. For that one child, yes, I am willing to see a bill sent to Congress. This is not the best or only solution, but it is A solution and it has a potential to work well. I’m sorry that some of you will never see that.

[Satan]

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *

**Gee willickers Satan
You really put me in my place.

**

So that’s the best you can do?

**Those who are really interested in how the program WILL WORK can read my posts, those who want the old democratic line about the ifs and maybes of why it WON’T WORK can read Satan’s posts to their hearts content.

**

False dilemma. But, you know, if you are just saying you cannot respond to the criticism that myself and others have come up with, then I would agree.

**There has never been a mention of federal testing standards. The same standards would be used as are currently used in States and thus the States would in effect administer the federal voucher program.

**

And as has been shown, many people have issues with this as a litmus test, and in addition fear how kids will get taught if we face such importance on tests of this nature. Did you not read the citations people presented here? Or do you just disbelieve them out of hand because it hurts your argument?

**demographics…districts. Again, common sense tells me that this is illegal, to base districting on demographics, but then I am for the voucher program and by your standards automatically shy of common sense.

**

No, you lack common sense because you still don’t grasp that if I take an area and say, okay, this area will go to this school, I need to have an idea that the area has enough kids to attend a schol, the right size of the schools, the amount of faculty needed, transportation, and a ton of other things.

Do you honestly think that this information is not important so as to have fair borders and to be able to take care of everyone within those districts? Do you honestly not see that it is impossible to allocate resources (i.e. schools, supplies, anything else) if the amount of people who would need those resources can potentially change drastically?

**If I were stuck due to my economic situation in a district with a school that taught my children to do nothing but slide through the system, I would welcome an opportunity to send them to another school.

**

I… Me… I… My kid… As has been explained, sure, isolated kids may benefit from this program and similar ones. But the overall picture, and the problems it would cause (many which you cannot answer to) make things AT BEST unimproved en masse.

**Yes, there are alot of uncertainties. Noone has seen the full program yet, nor have they seen any programs proposed by either candidate aside from some sound bytes.

**

Which is, of course, why you find it such an appealing plan.

**So shall we give up? Shall we surrender to inequalities and flaws in the system?

**

You still don’t see the obvious: This plan IS giving up! This plan says that the public school system is beyond fixing, so let’s get kids out of it! That is the very DEFINITION of giving up!

**I can’t convince you how the program will work, you are so dead set against it you can’t see the possibilities.

**

My very first post was open-mindedly asking for reasons why this plan is good. I was quite ready to be convinced. It is your argument which are weak, because you are arguing a plan which is weak.

**I can’t force feed to you the idea that children deserve better than what they are getting and your ideas, while wonderful, can still be implemented.

**

How do you think we would be able to fix the public schools while closing schools and having kids leave it? You have not answered that and I don’t think you can.

**The assertion that nothing will be done to help the failing schools is a made-up and absurd allegation. Of course efforts will be made. Federal, State and Local funding will be used to fix these schools to keep the money in the system.

**

If this money is being given away to parents already, what you are suggesting is spending WAY MORE, which is something you yourself already said is not a fix, didn’t you?

In addition, if people are leaving public schools, there will be NO SCHOOL to fix!

**If you don’t think the Board of Education is driven with a desire to keep their high salaries, I have no other assurances to offer you that they will do everything they can to fix these schools.

**

No, I don’t think this is the case. And aside from your own conspiracy theories, I have yet to see an iota of evidence of this widespread corruption and ineptitude.

**Beyond the rhetoric and the negatives is a program which has the potential to provide even one impoverished child with a better education.

**

Again, I already commented on that. I’ll repeat it: Our system already has that “potential” and does so. If we are to implement a plan, it should change things to have the potential to help ALL or at least a lot more than the current system does. You have not demonstrated this as likely.

---

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
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I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!*

[Stuffy]

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *
**Gee willickers Satan
You really put me in my place.
Those who are really interested in how the program WILL WORK can read my posts, those who want the old democratic line about the ifs and maybes of why it WON’T WORK can read Satan’s posts to their hearts content.

**

And we have continually exposed the flaws in your logic. You then go on to say that yeah it has problems but they’ll be “ironed out”. I submit that YOU have no clearer idea than we do as to whether it will work. However we have presented concrete examples of the fallacies in this plan, to which you ignore or evade.

**There has never been a mention of federal testing standards. The same standards would be used as are currently used in States and thus the States would in effect administer the federal voucher program.

**

No less than two problems to this were pointed out.

1. Requires (probably unconstitutionally) private industry to be forced to conform to federal mandate, including but not limited too freedom of religion, freedom of associations etc., ad nauseum.

2. As was provided by another poster, makes it a damn near certainty that schools will teach to the test rather than engage in actual teaching.

demographics…districts. Again, common sense tells me that this is illegal, to base districting on demographics, but then I am for the voucher program and by your standards automatically shy of common sense.

What?! Come again?

**I will say this though. If I were stuck due to my economic situation in a district with a school that taught my children to do nothing but slide through the system, I would welcome an opportunity to send them to another school. You, of course can argue that I would be a fool to do so or that it wouldn’t help me. I would prefer the option to your promises of a better education that I have been listening to all my life.

**

As has been pointed out, you have that choice now. Sure others can’t afford it, but bankrupting the current system and forcing them into another which may or may not be better seems to be the solution you prefer. Oh and I have yet to see you back that statement up. I’ve already posited that it’s an unfair allegation, as have other posters. That test scores are based on a whole student body and averaged, how can you say the entire school is failing?

That some parents don’t care enough to get involved in their kids situations. That some kids don’t go to school to learn. How does your precious voucher program address these issues?

**Yes, there are alot of uncertainties. Noone has seen the full program yet, nor have they seen any programs proposed by either candidate aside from some sound bytes. These details all get worked out in Congress before a law is passed. Any program will have loop holes and flaws, educational or otherwise, you are right, it is impossible to please the entire nation with one cookie cutter program. So shall we give up? Shall we surrender to inequalities and flaws in the system? I say no and hope that most of America agrees. I believe you will find that they do.

**

No but we can as other poster and myself have demostated, go for the OBVIOUS solutions first, of which btw, you’ve agreed would help. Yet I haven’t seen you touting Gores plan to commit funding to open new schools, to reduce class size, to reward teachers. No you’ve decided that it can’t be fixed so lets tear it down and replace if with MORE problems.

**I can’t convince you how the program will work, you are so dead set against it you can’t see the possibilities. Very much like people who are against the welfare-to-work program or the Healthy Start program, educational opportunities for the underpriveledged. I can’t force feed to you the idea that children deserve better than what they are getting and your ideas, while wonderful, can still be implemented.

**

Nice broad brushed stroke there. If you can’t satisfacorily debate your position, attack the posters who disagree. Oh I see how that’s fair. Instead of personal attacks, how about defending your positions. No it’s easier to call us uncaring elitist racist.

**The assertion that nothing will be done to help the failing schools is a made-up and absurd allegation. Of course efforts will be made. Federal, State and Local funding will be used to fix these schools to keep the money in the system. If you don’t think the Board of Education is driven with a desire to keep their high salaries, I have no other assurances to offer you that they will do everything they can to fix these schools.

**

So again you acknowlegde that the sitution is not unfixable, but yet you still support destroying it? I’m confused. BTW, you acknowledeged in another post, that you have no basis for that allegation either than that just what you’ve heard.

**Beyond the rhetoric and the negatives is a program which has the potential to provide even one impoverished child with a better education. For that one child, yes, I am willing to see a bill sent to Congress. This is not the best or only solution, but it is A solution and it has a potential to work well. I’m sorry that some of you will never see that.

**

No as we’ve pointed out it has the potential to fail, and fail spectacularly as similar programs in the pass have. why aren’t you getting this? BTW, I’d like to point out that most of the rhethoric has come from you on this, including assertions of racism, elitism, classism and I’m sure there were others.

Here’s an idea how about taking a step back and listening?

[Satan]

Since JAG seems to be content to let his case rest and not debate the issue anymore, let’s recap what we have learned here:

[/quote]

“It will get rid of that pesky over-crowding problem.”

This plan does not address what happens when private schools, inundated with students, start to suffer the same fate.

[/quote]

“It establishes accountability, a requirement to show results or lose funds.”

This accountability is based solely on standardized test scores which some, evidence shows, has socio-economical biases in them.

[/quote]

“Schools will be competing for your ‘business.’”

Competition does not mean “better,” and thus far, no evidence has been shown that this would be the case.

[/quote]

Statements such as:

“There are plenty of private schools around 3-4K per year. Where they don’t exist, they will pop up to meet demand if there is any.”

and

“Once the vouchers are distributed, and others are allowed to compete for that voucher, we will see more private, non-religious schools enter the market.”

and

“Same thing applies, if there is a rural community with a failing school, don’t think for a second there isn’t a private industry willing to come out for 20 students.”

are suppositions which is not supported by any evidence.

In fact:

“The private institutions decide to either participate or not participate.”

And when you factor in:

“The private school CANNOT charge more than the voucher amount if it wishes to accept vouchers.”

It’s a provision which would dissuade private schools from participating. And…

“Okay, so, require licensing of teachers and the schools so that they meet minimum requirements (we do that now).”

It’s a provision which would dissuade private schools from participating. And…

“there is another requirement under GW’s plan, the school has to pre-exist ON IT’s OWN, without vouchers for one year AND pass an achievement test to qualify.”

It’s another provision which would dissuade private schools from popping up. And…

“If they participate, they must be tested and they must charge no more for tuition than the federal/state voucher pays.”

It’s another provision which would dissuade private schools from participating.

All of which is further contradicted by statements such as:

“New private schools would be formed with a lower student to teacher ratio.”

When we have no proof that these new schools will form, everything says they probably won’t, and given this, it is unlikely that what schools are there which opt to participate won’t get just as overcrowded as their public counterparts.

[/quote]

“It will be almost invariably for the poor only.”

A statement brought out only by the erroneous and unbacked claims that only poor people are in “failing” schools:

“the middle class and the rich almost invariably CANNOT participate in the voucher system because schools in their neighborhoods will pass the school testing system.”

To be sure, the plan as of yet does not address anything based upon need.

Even if true, the claims that “vouchers give people choices” are erroneous because in reality, they will only give poor people choices. The middle class person with four kids will not get this choice allowed them if they cannot afford private schools for their whole family.

[/quote]

“They can go to ANOTHER PUBLIC SCHOOL if they wish.”

This is assuming a lot of factors, all stemming from the assumption that nearby public schools will be able to take on new students. Also, the transportation to these schools would be a problem in many areas and for many people.

[/quote]

“The private schools CANNOT force religion on a voucher participant.”

A rule which removes religion-based private schools - which make up the majority of private institutions - from participating.

[/quote]

“These private schools will obviously have computers, space and insurance.”

Many private schools do not have these things now, especially when you say:

“But the top private schools are not the issue, they won’t be available to the poor who will be exercising these vouchers anyway.”

As such, there is no way of guaranteeing any kind of improvment.

[/quote]

“The ineffective schools will end up shut down and their administration replaced to achieve results.”

and

“The competition is that if your school fails you will loose students and funding.”

say exactly that failing schools will lose money and students, which is directly contradicted by:

“I disagree vehemently that this would be death for any schools…”

and

“Also, this doesn’t force anyone out of the public school of their district, they can stay in the failing school if they want.”

and

“If they lost ALL their students, they wouldn’t be able to improve above the failing point, so they must retain some portion of their base.”

and

“Overpopulation problems may arise, causing an exodus back to the public school.”

and

“Each school will obviously have a limit on the number of students they can handle.”

and

“There have to be limits obviously, first come first serve.”

and most definitely

“The assertion that nothing will be done to help the failing schools is a made-up and absurd allegation. Of course efforts will be made. Federal, State and Local funding will be used to fix these schools to keep the money in the system.”

I mean, what is it? Closed schools or not? There is no answer here to a very basic question.

[/quote]

“The good teachers will be in higher demand than ever and thus making more money than ever.”

There is no evidence of this. In fact, when you add the other new things that this plan would demand, including a nomadic existance to an already underfunded profession which is already hurting for people, an unpresidented reliance upon something as contoversial as tests which would make or break their careers, evidence shows more people would be turned away.

And the plan does nothing to rectify the situation that people still think:

“Do you think I couldn’t get one of the best teachers in the country for $35-40k?”

Teachers are vastly underpaid for the amount of education they need to have compared to other professions. The plan, as this quote is indicative of, does not answewr this problem.

[/quote]

“Tracks poor performing schools for 3 years.”

If the situation is so severe, why do we wait three years before we take action?

[/quote]

“We use standardized tests now.”

Only for information and statistics. Not as a life-giving (or ending) all-important aspect of academic life. And…

“…since the standardized tests now have to be taken at the private schools, they may have to alter their curriculum to meet those tests.”

So we are telling private institutions to alter their curriculum (a provision which would dissuade schools from participating) and include these tests whose effectiveness and accuracy is already questionable.

[/quote]

“$3,000 a year is enough to school a child for 8 months.”

This is not backed up by any facts and there is also no guarantee that the rates would stay the same, especially with an influx of new students which would require new resources.

[/quote]

“What difference would it make to the current system if there is nothing better out there? It takes away no students, no money, no teachers.”

Is probably the funniest statement yet. Because the whole purpose of the plan is that students are taken away from public schools, which directly have to have a bearing on the amount of money and teachers in those schools.

My personal favorite argument about how “failing” schools can avoid losing funding is that:

“if noone leaves no money leaves…”

Which means this plan would work just dandy if nobody took advantage of it. Always a selling point to any great ideas.

And even if this was not giggle-inducing logic, the fact is there are no provisions for MORE funds to help the schools, which puts us in this scenerio right where we are now – Which is a place supposedly so horrible that we neede change.

[/quote]

“So the government will lose the ability to redistrict with vouchers… I didn’t read that part of the plan.”

Another problem with vouchers is that fair and stable zoning for school districts is impossible when shifts in where the kids will be going to school – Local public schools? Private schools? Public schools in other districts? Students coming in from other districts? Students who decide to stay in the “failing” schools? - are impossible to predict.

[/quote]

“Why do you assume the public transportation system (particularly in inner cities) is insufficient to meet the transportation needs of the children.”

This assumes that only inner-city schools are going to be affected and that all students will have public transportation available to them and will be able to afford it, assumptions which are not reasonable.

[/quote]

“Since vouchers will be used by parents to send kids to private schools, this amounts to public funding of private schools, right?”

Right. Which leads to…

“But if voucher money begins to be spent on them, aren’t there some serious discrimination and SOCAS ramifications?”

Which only adds forther doubt about the program – This time with the possibility that the implementation of it would be unconstitutional!

[/quote]

“If only one child can come out of a ghetto and go to college because of it, why not?”

It seems that already more than “one child” is capable ofdoing so without this program and all of its bad ideas. Does anyone doubt that kids are overcoming even the worst schools and succeeding? Imagine if we made those schools better instead of shut them down…

[/quote]

“If you don’t think the Board of Education is driven with a desire to keep their high salaries, I have no other assurances to offer you that they will do everything they can to fix these schools.”

Baseless assertion with no evidence to back it up.

[/quote]

I think I summed up very nicely the points of this voucher plan that JAG thinks so highly of with the reservations that I and others have in as brief a manner I could manage.

Someone please correct me if I am mistaken on any of the counts… If not, then I do encourage you to, as JAG said, read the arguments and come to your own conclusions…

---

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
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[Maeglin]

That was magnificent, Satan.

MR

[Dangerosa]

Satan, wow…you’re real smart.

[JustAnotherGuy]

Satan had it, I was gone, finished with this debate, but it just isn’t enough for some people, they have to rehash, again and again and again, the same tired points… like me!
grin (I need to learn how to do smiley faces some day)

On one hand opponents will tell you that this plan will kill the public school system because all the students will be leaving. Please note that not all schools are failing and thus not all schools will be affected. Please further note that even in the schools affected, not all parents will exercise the options and by a few exercising and others heeding the calls of the administration of the public schools to stay while they fix things, smaller classroom sizes will assist in this goal. Opponents assume that all parents will freak out that their children attend a failing school, something none of them have done in the past when their children were in repeatedly failing schools. But now they have an option, something that the opponents fear.

If this is the case, that all students abandon a school and go into other schools that better serve them, then yes, that school will be closed as well it should be. Education is for the children not for the teachers and administrators and the school buildings. This will, however, be the exception, not the norm.

On the other hand, the very same opponents argue that private schools won’t participate due to the restrictions on religion and restrictions on how much the vouchers will charge, which are somehow seen as unconstitutional. Government says I will pay $25 for a hammer. Vendors A, B and C line up and accept that price. Vendor D says it is below their bottom line so they refuse to participate. I fail to see the unconstitutionality of that, but I am not a lawyer.

So, on this side of the coin, there will be nowhere for the students to use the vouchers. Never mind that some States are using vouchers without any federal funding right now. Never mind that Florida’s voucher program, on which GW’s is based, is getting better educations for children previously stuck in failing schools today. If, however, on the federal level noone participates, there is no need to fear the voucher program because it will be a waste of the time of politicians to put on paper.

Opponents have argued that standardized tests have socio-economic impacts. I am unsure how many readers have taken a standardized test, like the SAT or ACT, used by most colleges for entrance purposes. As a feedback, how many of you saw socio-economic impacts?

The socio-economic impacts are that people with the least money suffer from the worst education opportunities in most situations. Think about that word… social and economic impacts. How else does that compute besides social status and economics affecting one’s education? Thus the need to get those with socio-economic impacts out of schools that subject them to these impacts.

The opponents argue that comptetition does not mean better. Agreed. Competition does, however, mean alternatives. Alternatives that the parents of children in failing schools do not have now.

Meanwhile, the same opponents argue there will be no competition because no schools will be willing to compete.
They argue they have no need to provide evidence of their views so they can flagrantly throw all kinds of competing and self-defeating arguments around as to why it won’t work. Well, it has to be one way or the other, so I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind.

The same opposition which has argued against these vouchers because it will only help the middle class, then complain when it is made obvious that they will have no affect on the middle class. Much like welfare, section 8, and many other social and economic programs, the voucher program is designed to help the poor only, who suffer the most from a lack of quality education.

The opposition argues that the students can’t attend other public schools. It is part of the bill, but rather than address the implications, they have a neigh-sayer attitude that it can’t possibly work because of overcrowding or public transportation. Meanwhile, a school with more funding could expand, rent more space, possibly even take over the space of a failing school.

Other public schools certainly aren’t profit-based. They may build their fat a little, but not at the expense of lost students through overcrowding. This is the much waved policy of common sense.

I mean, what is it? Closed schools or not? There is no answer here to a very basic question.

I would like to see you simply pick one side of that and go with it. It’s quite easy to ride both sides of the fence.

My answer has continuously been very few or no closed schools. The hope of the program is that there will be no closed schools, that the schools will rectify their teaching methods and curriculum prior to any necessity of vouchers. The hope of the program is that if the current hierarchy of a school can’t make the corrections, another leadership will take it’s place. The hope of the voucher program is to provide quality education to all children.

The opposition argues that teachers, with more schools and smaller classrooms will now be in lower demand. It is common sense: more classrooms = more positions = more competition = better wages for good teachers.

The further allegation that teachers who score well do not get better pay is a fallacy. The best teachers, with a few exceptions by those who sincerely care about the drastic situation of the poor, work for nice, new schools in the suburbs, where they are paid more money and do not need for supplies. They won’t voluntarily work in the inner-cities, even if they were offered more pay. There are transportation and safety issues beyond the pay and supplies.

The voucher program understands that the public education system is incapable of bringing a good solid education to some areas as it exists. More pay and bonuses isn’t going to help that. So, one alternative is to give those stuck in a school that can’t get the best teachers a “Get out of your failing school free” card, a voucher.

Responses to the opposition on the same repetitive issues, get the same repetitive attacks. You will note that the same arguments are consistently made for both sides of the fence. On one hand, the opposition says noone will participate, to which the reply is then nothing is lost so why are you so against it? The reason for that reply is that proponents know there will be participation, beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is happening right now in Florida, the plan after which the Bush plan is based. People are using the vouchers. We won’t know until the next testing period whether they are working, but we have our hopes up for these children.

The opposition also alleges that no funds would be put into the education system to improve it. This is perhaps an attempt to argue for the Gore package to which I say please introduce it and we can debate it. Otherwise, I prefer to focus on the only issue of this thread, school vouchers. Bush’s package does include immediate federal funding for public schools, but I have not brought that up because it really isn’t part of the voucher program nor is it meaningful to this debate. I could also make remarks about the great strides the Bush administration has made in education in Texas without a voucher program while Gore has done nothing about the educational problems of the nation from a position where he could take action. To imply that proponents of a voucher system don’t care about public education is about equivalent to saying that proponents of abortion rights don’t care about children. It simply isn’t true.

This is not however, a Gore/Bush debate. Nor is it a Republican/Democrat debate. It is a debate about school vouchers and I hope I have done justice for the merits of the program.

[Satan]

*Originally posted by JustAnotherGuy *

**Satan had it, I was gone, finished with this debate, but it just isn’t enough for some people, they have to rehash, again and again and again, the same tired points… like me!

**

As long as you’re honest about it…

**On one hand opponents will tell you that this plan will kill the public school system because all the students will be leaving.

**

And on that hand, that is exactly what will happen.

**Please note that not all schools are failing and thus not all schools will be affected.

**

And we judge this criteria how? With tests which are questionable in accuracy. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**Please further note that even in the schools affected, not all parents will exercise the options and by a few exercising and others heeding the calls of the administration of the public schools to stay while they fix things, smaller classroom sizes will assist in this goal.

Opponents assume that all parents will freak out that their children attend a failing school, something none of them have done in the past when their children were in repeatedly failing schools.

**

1. Once again, you are pointing out that a way to make this plan work is having people specifically NOT using it! Does this make logical sense here, Sparky? To say the plan will only work if people DO NOT MAKE USE OF IT?!? THIS IS A RECORDING…

2. Please use some common sense here: Except for the most apathetic of parents, there’s not a parent around who would say, “Well, they say the school is ‘failing,’ and Junior’s friends are leaving the school, but I’ll just keep him in there.” THIS IS A RECORDING…

**But now they have an option, something that the opponents fear.

**

False dillema. Are you saying you haven’t READ EVERY FUCKING THING which is fear, not of choice, but of the cost of this choice, and how it won’t help? You know, the objections you either ignore or contradict a point you tried to make earlier in order to address? THIS IS A RECORDING…

**On the other hand, the very same opponents argue that private schools won’t participate due to the restrictions on religion and restrictions on how much the vouchers will charge, which are somehow seen as unconstitutional.

**

Use your fucking head, man. There are a ton of reasons why I, Mr. Capitalist Businessman, would want nothing to do with this program in my private school venture. They are all listed above. And in some cases, those who would deal with the BS have motives (remember the religious school example I put forth a few pages ago?) which are unconstitutional! THIS IS A RECORDING…

**So, on this side of the coin, there will be nowhere for the students to use the vouchers.

**

A very likely result of this plan, yes. Again, deduced using logic, and you can’t seem to actually comment on why that logic is wrong. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**Never mind that some States are using vouchers without any federal funding right now. Never mind that Florida’s voucher program, on which GW’s is based, is getting better educations for children previously stuck in failing schools today.

**

Cites?

**If, however, on the federal level noone participates, there is no need to fear the voucher program because it will be a waste of the time of politicians to put on paper.

**

Yes. A complete waste of time, energy and money which can be used to put forth good ideas which have a better chance of working. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**Opponents have argued that standardized tests have socio-economic impacts. I am unsure how many readers have taken a standardized test, like the SAT or ACT, used by most colleges for entrance purposes. As a feedback, how many of you saw socio-economic impacts?

**

For the record, I could go through all 21,400 links that Google gave me when I put in “SAT test bias” in the search engine. This included right on the front page citations accusing the SAT of bias based upon gender, ethnicity, language and economical reasons. Instead of asking a question for personal experience of at best a couple of people, how about looking at the overall picture?

Oh, and talk about these so-called “cultural biases” in standardized testing has been going on for a long time. This is not a new phenomenon.

**The opponents argue that comptetition does not mean better. Agreed. Competition does, however, mean alternatives. Alternatives that the parents of children in failing schools do not have now.

**

Alternatives do not mean better alternatives. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**Meanwhile, the same opponents argue there will be no competition because no schools will be willing to compete.

**

Only because this plan makes it so unrealistic that any appreciable number of private entities will step up to the plate. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**They argue they have no need to provide evidence of their views so they can flagrantly throw all kinds of competing and self-defeating arguments around as to why it won’t work.

**

1. we have provided evidence. Ample evidence. THIS IS A RECORDING…

2. If you cannot refute the problems that people have with this plan, then maybe they are right? THIS IS A RECORDING…

**Well, it has to be one way or the other, so I leave it to the reader to make up their own mind.

**

Yes, and I feel I did a fine job summarizing all of your contradictory and baseless statements. This should save people from wading through the times you called people racists and insulted them and used debating fallacies and get to the heart of your position. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**The same opposition which has argued against these vouchers because it will only help the middle class, then complain when it is made obvious that they will have no affect on the middle class.

**

Actually, I have argued that it won’t help ANYONE! THIS IS A RECORDING…

**The opposition argues that the students can’t attend other public schools. It is part of the bill, but rather than address the implications, they have a neigh-sayer attitude that it can’t possibly work because of overcrowding or public transportation.

**

Oh! Well, if it’s “in the bill,”, I guess that solves all of the objections! I mean, just write it in a bill! That solves everything! THIS IS A RECORDING…

**Meanwhile, a school with more funding could expand, rent more space, possibly even take over the space of a failing school.

**

There are no schools getting more fuding. This plan has no extra funding for schools. Nada. Zilch. You know why? Because it’s all in fucking vouchers! THIS IS A RECORDING…

You yourself talked about how funding was taken away from these schools. THIS IS A RECORDING…

Any extra things come from Mr. Capitalist Businessman who, has has been demonstrated, will have better things to do with his money than to deal with the bullshit this plan entails. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**I would like to see you simply pick one side of that and go with it. It’s quite easy to ride both sides of the fence.

**

That’s fucking laughable.

I just showed to anyone with half a fucking brain in their head that all of your contradictory statements are attempts to do exactly that. THIS IS A RECORDING…

**My answer has continuously been very few or no closed schools.

**

So I need to grab more of your quotes that say the exact opposite of that? Or will I be accused of “riding both sides of the fence” by pointing out your inconsistancies yet again? THIS IS A RECORDING…

**The hope of the program is that there will be no closed schools, that the schools will rectify their teaching methods and curriculum prior to any necessity of vouchers.

**

The “hope” of the program does not fix the reality of its many flaws. And if all we want to do is get the schools to straighten up, why does it take this threat to do so? THIS IS A RECORDING…

**The hope of the program is that if the current hierarchy of a school can’t make the corrections, another leadership will take it’s place.

**

We do not need vouchers to accomplish this. THIS IS A RECORDING…

You know what? I am not doing this anymore. All you are doing is attempting to fillibust here, and in this gratuitous grandstanding, you still fail to address the concerns that I and others have for this program.

Tell you what: Either say something new, respond to an allegation or two, or find a new topic that you can get killed in a debate over.

I’ll respond again when I see something that has not already been discussed, or see you making some kind of rebuttal to what I and others have asserted.

Until then…

THIS IS A RECORDING… :rolleyes:

---

Yer pal,
Satan

*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, two weeks, two days, 20 hours, 26 minutes and 1 second.
7994 cigarettes not smoked, saving $999.26.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 6 days, 18 hours, 10 minutes.

I slept with a REPUBLICAN moderator!*

[Stuffy]

JAG, please see the following article

Also form todays paper, sorry no link (friggin ANG paper), a teacher is under investigation for cheating. Here are a few quotes

Chaconas confirmed a report by The Oakland Tribune that a fifth grade teacher at Toler Heights Elementary School in East Oakland is accused of coaching her students with practice test materials nearly – if not completely – identical to actual questions on the Stanford 9.

During dozens of interviews, investigators discovered students still remembered the practice test questions – which turned out to be almost “verbatim” to those on the real test, Chaconas said.

or this one:

Critics of new standardized testing for public schools say the cash rewards promised to successful schools and teachers can encourage cheating. Schools that fare poorly on new state exams could ultimately be taken over by the state.

Comments?

[VileOrb]

I have been lurking in this thread and enjoying it thoroughly. I just have a couple of comments at this point.

I think that the “socio-economic impacts” are largely the parents not teaching the kids, rather than a problem with the schools. I know I learned much more from my parents than I did from school. I was reading at a seventh grade level before I started 1st grade. I believe that throwing kids who didn’t get this kind of teaching from their parents into schools with kids who did will hurt all the kids. I hate this whole idea of not giving recognition to high performing kids because you don’t want the low performers to feel bad. I also hate the idea of putting the fast and slow learners all in a group and hoping that all will benefit.

I am willing to allow that fast learners could be educated with less money. A large class with a lot of self paced learning could probably be done very cheaply. Any needed one on one time would probably be provided for free by the parents of those without the socio-economic handicaps. The slower learners, and those who need some remedial work to bring them up to speed, need more one on one time, which is expensive. The parents of the “gifted” youth would probably raise a stink if they learned that more money was being invested in the slow learners, so this probably wouldn’t be a popular decision. Maybe we could do something like make free tutoring in remedial subjects available during self paced class time. So, those who were ahead could remain ahead by studing hard but those who were behind would be given the assistance of trained tutors to get them caught up with the majority.

Anyway, my point is this. I appreciate that it is an honorable thing to make the effort to improve the school system. What I don’t like about the voucher thing is that it assumes that the public schools are the problem. I think that if you put the advantaged kids into the failing schools the school would be fine. In most places, it’s the home that is failing, not the school. Can your father help you with your trigonometry homework? Mine did. And so the private school I was attending looked good even though I think my trig teacher was among the worst teachers I ever had.

Maybe this would work if you started with just first grade and were very careful to not lower the education standard so that new underpriviledged kids were pushed to catch up to the priviledged. Then you move to 1st and 2nd. And so on until you’ve got the whole system in place. Moving highschool kids around is just going to cause problems.

It has been shown that dumping money into the school system doesn’t always improve things. Here is a way I think you could dump money in and reap benefits right away. Let’s make schooling available 8 hours a day year round. It would be free day care. I know kids need time to assimilate and all that but it could be built in. You could have a summer session with a lot of sports and drama and music. You could have more recess time. A lot could be done. This would be expensive, but not still not even in the same league as military expenses. It would also save a lot of money on government daycare aid. Crime would probably drop. I can’t think of any negatives except the cost and I think it would be worth it. OK, so this is a huge hijack. sorry.

[DoZ]

Vouchers don’t work if you believe in democracy, and an educated populace.

Vouchers only work if you are elitist or heavily religious or both, and want some people excluded from power.