"School's a stage, kids are playaz" - Can rap teach kids math, history & 'MacBeth'?

Great Debates
1

Today’s Chicago Tribune reports a new approach to education. Is it a good idea?

I have a litany of complaints.[ul][]Rap and Hip Hop are not only bad role models, they’re bad music. []This approach is racially divisive. []The method is untested; there’s no reason to think it will work. Yet, the article says this method is already being used “in Chicago and around the country” []Inner city kids ought to be given the best possible eduction. Instead, they’re being used as guinea pigs. []Principal Fontanez-Phelan sounds more interested in what’s “innovative” than in what works.[]Professor Duncan-Andrade shouldn’t be at UCLA teaching others how to teach.[]The reporter ought not to have written the article with such an upbeat tone.[]This whole business shows why school vouchers are essential. Too many of those running or influencing public schools have their heads up their ass.[/ul]

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::Gimme a beat:::
Yo! Yo! Yo! Yo December Open your mind!
Get down with it you’re being unkind.

Listen to me, stop playing with your Peter
Learning is fun with rhyme and meter.

The words must have music too, you know?
No reason history shouldn’t be a show.

Creating disciplined thought is all that matter
why you got to be dissing iambic pentameter?

If it’s good enough for my Homey, Shakespeare it’s good enough for me.
Seems a good way to enliven math and history.
-Word up.

-Word to you your mother.

3

While I am not a big fan of Rap, I think it is somewhat of a good idea.
People have been doing this our whole lives… this is just the next step…

everything that we ned to memorize, we are taught at a young age how to make it snappy so we are able to remember it…

Is the alphabet a song? or an order of letters??

do you say “abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz”
or do you sing "a b c d e f g, h i j k lmnop, q r s, t u v, w x y (and)z

when learning music, did you remember egbdf were the lines? or did you have a group of words for it?

If a child does not want to learn, then you need to find a fun way for them to want to learn.
I think this is a good idea…

4

Odd, then, that Shakespeare wrote in blank verse, in rhythmic phrasing that can very well be done to rap rhythm, with a lot of double entendre that presumably amused the audiences of his day but which 400 years of linguistic change have left behind.

I’m not thrilled about “let’s make school relevant by watering down the curriculum” ideas. But this has its potential, and I’d like to see what they can make of it.

And kids have been learning rote material by sing-song techniques for something over a hundred years now. Little Andrea sang her ABCs for me two weeks ago in the traditional rhyme that is reminiscent of “Twinkle Twinkle Little Star” – and was very proud of herself for having learned it.

As regards your last point, December, you conflate an experimental teaching technique that you happen to disapprove of with the idea that government is required to subsidize the personal predilections of parents as to how their children should be educated. Such a concept is something I feel strongly is elitist and contrary to American values, not to mention contrary to the principles of conservatism.

5

December, I love you. i really do, you are so consistant in finding the negative in everything with color, that I wonder why you live in such a diverse country at all.

Get with the program. You are an old man, the world is passing you(and me) by.

Your line Rap is racially divisive, shows you know NOTHING. I remember back in the early days of MTV, MTV was afraid of playing RAP, because they were afraid of alienating the white kids…wrong. MTV Raps, began THE most popular segment on MTV. Grow up December, when Fred Flintstone is rapping Cocoa Pebbles, RAP as lost any ‘edge’ it might have had.

Welcome to the world of December, where wonder bread rules…and any form of creativity must end with a string quartet.

blah.

6

Of course you have a litany of complaints; why should this shock any of us? However, some counterpoints:

You shouldn’t generalize about all rap. Have you ever actually listened to any rap, let alone a variety of rap? I have. Not all of it is profanity-laden misogynistic crap; some of it is actually quite witty, linguistically complex, humorous, and well-constructed. If you want, I’ll ask my sister for some recommendations for you.

Why should rap in this situation necessarily function differently than any other form of poetry? Remember the “Schoolhouse Rock” series? Those cartoons got a large proportion of GenX (myself included) through the basics of grammar, arithmetic, and the U.S. Constitution. And I’m sure there were people kvetching at the time that we shouldn’t use cartoons to teach kids the three Rs.

How do you figure using rap is racially divisive? If anything, I think having kids from different backgrounds listen to each other’s music would be a unifying force, not a divisive one, and would make the kids who grew up with rap rather than symphonic music feel included. If you pout it into its proper linguistic and cultural context, you can learn a lot from it. Or don’t you think my grade school and high school should have had us learn gospel or spirituals, since they weren’t the music of my heritage? (Although they were the musical heritage of about half of my schoolmates.) They were a great tool for teaching about slavery, the civil rights movement, etc.)

Besides, plenty of white kids listen to rap. My sister, the nice suburban white Jewish girl, is a big aficionado; she listens to rap and R&B to the exclusion of almost all else, as do many of her friends. My 14-year-old brother listens to rap, and he gets straight A’s at a competitive private school. There was even one quite hilarious period when my mother decided that rap was poetry, and that she should learn to write it. (Well, I don’t know if Mom is a good example – the results were awful – but at least she was open-minded.)

At this moment, I have a Spanish-language hip-hop CD in my Walkman (check out www.fulanito.com), yet I also sang in various classical-type choirs all through high school and college, and for several years afterward, and continue to listen to and study all kinds of music in a relatively serious way. Why restrict kids to certain “accepted” forms of music or poetry, if there’s other stuff that will turn them on to learning? Some of these kids need all the help they can get, and if rap gets them excited about language and going to school, I’m all for it.

I suppose if it were up to you, though, the educational system would never innovate. If a log cabin in the woods was good enough for Abe Lincoln, it should be good enough for the rest of us.

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P.S. Anyone want to take on the challenge of turning december on to rap?

8

Scylla’s reply was pretty funny, but still I have to agree with December (somewhat).

To me, this sounds like an attempt to be “cool” and have the kids think “Hey, rap music! Wow, I like this, school isn’t so bad!”.
My personal experience from similar situations is, that kids are rather likely to go “Oh man, this is embarrassing. Haven’t they got any pride left?”.

Of course the argument “kids are used as guinea pigs.” and “this method is untested” is a bit problematic, as things can only turn out to be tested and effective, when they are actually done.
I for one would prefer “traditional” schooling though. In my opinion the teachers just need to increase the expectations instead of lowering them to solve a lot of problems.

Whenever I talked with teachers from my old school, they always claimed that kids today aren’t as smart and in turn they have to lower the standards. This in turn leads to worse education.

However, when I was in school, I’d put just enough effort in, in order to pass. If the standards are raised, then I’d simply put a bit more effort in. To put it bluntly: Kids are lazy by default and if you lower the expectations, the average results won’t get better, but will stay at the previous low, because they adapt to the new hurdles and work less accordingly.

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Hey December, care to expand on why Rap, which seems to be enjoyed by all races, is racially divisive? I’m sure you’ll google and find some guy rapping “kill whitey” and use that as ‘proof’, which is your usual tact.

However, i would like you to use the high road and really attempt to show, not with one or to instances, but within the ‘body of work’.

10

What a surprise.

Well, that’s a matter of taste, isn’t it? Sorry this is not really a valid complaint at all, this is just whinging. My dear Father, of pre-depression vintage proclaims nothing after Mozart was of any value, about as useful a observation.

I personally rather like some Rap and Hip Hop. Some is good, much is shit. Such is music.

My dear December, I am sure you may be vaguely aware that middle class white kids are the biggest present consumers of rap.

I have no opinion on the method etc.

11

It’s not only that I disapprove of the technique, it’s still experimental. Before educators use it widely, they ought to find out whether it works or not.

Unfortunately, the use of unproved, “innovative” methods is all too common. The education establishment has foisted fad after fad on students. My wife and I are mathematicians. When my daughter’s class was using a worthless experimental math approach we saved her from innumeracy by teaching her ourselves. But, lots of inner city parents aren’t in a position to save their children from ineffective education.

You may recall the notorious Tuskegee Project, where poor blacks were unknowingly used as subjects in a research project on syphilis. That was a horrible injustice. Using poor black kids as subjects of educational research is comparable IMHO.

holmes, the reason why Rap is racially divisive is that this approach will be used in black schools (I assume). Non-black schools will use different music.

Collounsbury, you are correct that I consider Mozart to be better than Rap in some more-or-less objective sense. I don’t think the difference is “just taste.” In fact, I think Mozart is truly better than all but a handful of other music.

12

I disagree with the idea because it’s just plain naff,and I think ‘the kids’ are likely to see it as naff too.

13

What makes you think that rap would only be used in majority-black classrooms, other than that the Chicago public school system has a disproportionate number of majority-black classrooms? Besides, even if true, it would just be turnabout for all the black kids who were forced to sit through Mozart, or in the case of my own middle school, Simon and Garfunkel.

The techniques being used now in the Chicago public schools are NOT reaching a lot of kids. There are high schools in Chicago where more than half the kids drop out before graduation. I don’t think anyone is talking about making rap part of the standard curriculum just yet, but why shouldn’t teachers get a crack at using techniques that will actually reach their students, for at least a small portion of the school day? The effectiveness of the standard curriculum could hardly be worse than it is at a lot of Chicago public schools. It’s time for some innovative ideas.

And I cannot believe that you are comparing trying a new teaching technique with deliberately allowing human beings to die of a potentially fatal, but quite treatable disease. You may think that rap is poison, but I wouldn’t have thought that even you could mean that literally rather than metaphorically.

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Having “black schools” in the first place is racially divisive. Whatever happened to the melting pot? Classes should be mixed, that’d solve a few problems as well. Dividing people into groups is never a good idea, imho.

15

I’d like to take a moment to respond to december’s list of complaints.

“Rap and Hip Hop are not only bad role models, they’re bad music.”

Those are both opinions. Why should we agree with them?

“This approach is racially divisive.”

White kids listen to rap. In fact, most rap is marketed to white suburban teenagers, because they have the money to buy it.

“The method is untested; there’s no reason to think it will work. Yet, the article says this method is already being used ‘in Chicago and around the country’”

Apparently there is a reason to think it will work–it relates the material to something kids like, and gets their attention. Besides, if it’s being used, we should look at whether it does work in practice, not in theory.

“Inner city kids ought to be given the best possible eduction. Instead, they’re being used as guinea pigs.”

Traditional methods have failed in the inner city. What exactly do you recommend?

“Principal Fontanez-Phelan sounds more interested in what’s “innovative” than in what works.”

How is this relevant?

“Professor Duncan-Andrade shouldn’t be at UCLA teaching others how to teach.”

How is this relevant? And furthermore, on what basis do you make this claim?

“The reporter ought not to have written the article with such an upbeat tone.”

I’m not even going to bother with this one. See my two previous comments?

“This whole business shows why school vouchers are essential. Too many of those running or influencing public schools have their heads up their ass.”

As do certain posters here. Can you make a good argument for this, or are you just asserting it?

You do realize, don’t you, that this is just a modern version of Schoolhouse Rock. Did you hate that too?

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For one thing, the euphimisms in the cited article “especially in urban school districts” and “students in poorer areas.”

Forced to sit through Mozart?! :eek: Surely you mean Privileged to sit through Mozart.

Education didn’t just begin in 2003. There are inner city schools that work. Educators ought to check out the proven techniques and use them.

Yes, I intended this level of comparison. From what I have read, millions of students are functionally illiterate or nearly so.

17

Why do you think non-black schools will use different music? (NB: it was easier just to say “non-black school” rather than quibble over what that means.)

I disagree with the premise that this is experimental. I have somehow managed to become a gainfully employed, productive member of society despite the fact that I was exposed to a heavy does of Schoolhouse Rock and Donald Duck in Mathemagics Land during my formative years. If this concept is experimental, it’s getting a little long in the tooth. It’s merely been updated to embrace rap music so you don’t have a bunch of kids rolling their eyes through class presentations on Love Canal set to the tune of “My Sharona.”

Yes, the rap will be goofy. Kids understand that, and will probably groan over it. All the music has to do is get itself stuck in their heads a la Conjunction Junction or I’m Just a Bill and it’s a job well done. I don’t think any of these teachers think they are producing rap music that is going to knock Eminem off the charts, nor did I read anything in that article that makes me think that rap music will replace additional reading, explanation, and discussion in the classroom on the topics it presents.

18

The approach is hardly new. When I was a kid I was in a gifted students’ program where classical music was played in the background all the time; I therefore learned to appreciate classical music. When I was in high school (mid-80s) we experimented with playing different types of music in the classroom, the reasoning being that since most of us studied at home while listening to music, the music could be used as a sort of mnemonic device to help us remember information during tests and such. What we found, in our almost-exclusively middle class white study, was that each kid performed best to the type of music that most suited their preference. If inner-city kids listen to rap at home, then by golly, let them listen while they learn.

Mind you, I’m no fan of rap. I’m not going to go across the board and say that none of it is any good, it just mostly doesn’t suit me. There’s nothing racially divisive about it though - most rap fans and many of the artists are white, and I personally like plenty of other styles of music performed by non-white artists. I spent four years working as a security guard at a sports/concert arena, and easily 60-70% of the audience at rap concerts was made up of white teenagers. In fact, the biggest problem we ever had at any of those concerts (apart from a backstage shooting, which was after I’d quit) was with a group of 15-year-old white kids from an affluent community, who absolutely trashed a luxury box rented by one kid’s father’s company. The problem there isn’t music, it’s ignorant kids who just needed an excuse to act out.

The only way they’re going to know if it works is by doing it. Based on my experience it’s worth trying, and given the state of education in truly poor districts around the country, I really don’t see any drawbacks. If it helps a handful of kids, at least that’s a handful more than before.

19

quote:

Originally posted by Eva Luna
What makes you think that rap would only be used in majority-black classrooms, other than that the Chicago public school system has a disproportionate number of majority-black classrooms?

For one thing, the euphimisms in the cited article “especially in urban school districts” and “students in poorer areas.”
quote:

Besides, even if true, it would just be turnabout for all the black kids who were forced to sit through Mozart, or in the case of my own middle school, Simon and Garfunkel.

[quote]
Forced to sit through Mozart?! Surely you mean Privileged to sit through Mozart. **

I meant exactly what I said. I happen to enjoy Mozart (along with a wide variety of other types of music). Yes, kids should be exposed to Mozart. However, if you are not giving them a choice, then yes, you are forcing them in a quite literal sense.

Would you care to share with the rest of the GD class exactly what magical and universally effective techniques these are, and perhaps expound on why, in your view, they are not being used to the extent you believe they should be? I’d be happy to share your thoughts with a good friend of mine, who teaches Special Ed in a Chicago public school on the South Side, a school which is nearly all black and is located across the street from a public housing project. I’ll see her in guitar class tonight, where she learns things that she takes back to her students to motivate them. IMO, and in her quite experienced O (she has a master’s in speech therapy and several years of special ed experience), anything that will work on a low-income autistic child is worth a crack.

I’ll also share your ideas with my stepmother, who is the #2 person in the NYC Board of Ed’s Office of Legal Counsel; she deals every day with the fallout of parents who believe their kids are being shortchanged educationally. I’m sure both would be glad to hear your magical solution.

Functional illiteracy, while awful, is curable. In addition, it does not cause death. End-stage syphillis causes irreversible physical damage, and eventually, death. (And I even learned that in my racially mixed public-school education.)

20

Hey, December, what better way to get kids off of rap then by making it a school curriculum.
Hope it works out that way…