"School's a stage, kids are playaz" - Can rap teach kids math, history & 'MacBeth'?

[holmes]

Optihut December’s assumption that this is a “black” thing and therefor BAD, tainted him and I imagine closed his mind to WHY it might be a good thing. I think that more than anything set the pack on him, opinions notwithstanding.

As far a Sesame Street and the other TV shows, this is the same THEORY. You take something and make it accessible to your audience…using popular culture. Watch some of the 1970 Sesame Street cartoons and grove to the Disco beat. But wasn’t Disco crap? Maybe, but my kids can still count to 20 AND do the hustle.

I’m over 40 freaking years old and I still sing that Conjunction Junction song and understand when and how to use one. I still remember that King Croc, with his seven sons…

[UrbanChic]

*Originally posted by december *
The last thing my parents would have wanted me to learn in public school was Jewish immigrant culture. They could provide as much of that as they liked. They wanted the schools to teach me to be a part of America. So, yes, I am unhappy at the schools focusing on "black culture."

I would first like to point out that rap/hip hop is no more black culture than country western music is white culture.

Let’s, for the sake of argument, assume that it is, though. Are black people not a part of this country? Do you have a problem with music appreciation classes teaching students about jazz? Do you have a problem with history classes teaching students about what it was like to be a slave in this country? Do you have a problem with students learning about Jim Crow laws?

It’s people like you, december, who remind me it’s the ones that don’t wear the white robes I have to look out for.

[Avalonian]

*Originally posted by december *
**rjung and Avalonian, your cry of racism is like being stuck in a box that limits your thinking. The methods described in Carter’s book have actually worked. But, you consider it unacceptible to criticize unproved methods, because they relate to black culture. I certainly don’t think the two of you are racists. However, your type of PC-blinkered thinking unfortunately limits the possible solutions to inner city educaiton problems. **

You obviously didn’t read my post, december. I criticized your specific statement of the rap music approach being “racially divisive” as racist in nature. Unless you’d care to further expand on that and explain what you meant and how it isn’t racist, I maintain that, as it stands, the statement is a racist one.

The point of “unproved methods” is a completely separate one, which I note you also did not address, and your conflation of the two points serves your argument very poorly. Also, trying to cast rjung and I as “PC” is simple ad hominem.

Are you planning to make a valid point at some time?

OptiHut… this answers one of your questions, about the racism charge. One statement within the original post is a racist statement.

Further, had december’s OP expressed even cautious inquiry of the method used in the article he cited, I would not have had a problem with that. It was specifically the inaccurate, opinion-based, groundless nature of the OP that brought out my criticism. I can only speak for myself, but in regards to me, you’re completely off-base in your accusation of “grudges.” The lack of merit in the OP, on a subject I know a great deal about, is what prompted my reply, and nothing more.

[Optihut]

I don’t like the spin this debate is getting. Instead of shouting “racist! racist!” would anybody actually care to return to the OP?

Let’s take a look, we have got a new method for teaching kids and among other things - which have already been debated, twisted and repeated to death - december said “Inner city kids ought to be given the best possible eduction. Instead, they’re being used as guinea pigs.”.
Granted, I criticized that reasoning in my first reply, but the more I think about it, the more it rings true. I gave my 2 cents on the counter argument of sesame street, but I’ll gladly rephrase and repeat:

I liked the count, Ernie and Bert just like the next guy, but as a TV show, this is merely an addition to what I learned at school. All the important things were learned in “traditional” classes. While it is commendable to try something new, this should be offered as an addition and not as a replacement to already effective methods.

[Eva_Luna]

**december, ** I’m surprised you don’t remember *Schoolhouse Rock; * your kids are about my age. From Amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000033TA/qid=1054668135/sr=8-4/ref=sr_8_4/104-9006005-2637537?v=glance&s=music&n=507846

“It’s hard to overestimate the effect Schoolhouse Rock had on anyone who was a child between 1973 and 1985. Forty-one three-minute educational cartoons set to original songs, they were the original music videos, and they taught countless kids the difference between adjectives (“Unpack Your Adjectives”) and adverbs (“Lolly, Lolly, Lolly, Get Your Adverbs Here”), how to multiply (“Three Is a Magic Number”), basic principles of science (“Do the Circulation,” “Interplanet Janet”), and American civics (“I’m Just a Bill,” “The Preamble”). All of the original songs are here, plus four Money Rock songs–“Dollars and Sense” and “Where the Money Goes” are as classic as any of the original standouts–and four tracks from the short-lived Scooter Computer & Mr. Chips series (which, unlike the rest of the Schoolhouse Rock songs, can be dated by the proto-new-wave-influenced instrumentation). A classic collection of (mostly) timeless songs that shaped the minds of a generation or two: how many box sets can you say that about?”

This is Amazon’s editorial review; the customer reviews are also quite telling about the impact the series had on my entire generation.

Even my parents, who used to have a rule that we could only watch 30 min./day of TV that wasn’t PBS, had no problems with Schoolhouse Rock. There was even a recent live musical stage version; I missed it, because all the performances were sold out.

So if Schoolhouse Rock is any indication, a rap teaching technique could be quite effective for today’s kids. Why are you so against the idea of trying something new, if current techniques aren’t cutting the mustard? Again, nobody is advocating making rap the basic standard framework; it’s a supplemental idea that could be used to reach kids who are otherwise in danger of missing much-needed educational opportunities.

(And thanks for the book recommendation; I’ll pass it along to my Special Ed friend, although she is so disgusted with the Chicago system that this will be her last year with them. She has a new job in the fall in Wilmette, the school district with Illinois’ highest per-capita spending level. I’m sure she’ll have new challenges, but low-income kids and their attendant problems won’t be one of them.)

[Palo_Verde]

*Originally posted by holmes *
**I still remember that King Croc, with his seven sons… **

Pssst. Holmes,

It’s the Aligator King and his seven sons

http://home.nc.rr.com/muppetsongs/songs/alligator_king

[holmes]

quote from December

However, I have noted that countrywide educational achievement did not imporve at the time Sesame Street became popular. In fact, it began to fall. So, I would judge that Sesame Street has not been effective educationally.

You’re looking to show a causal connection between the success of Sesame Street, a tv show for preschoolers and why our schools are still failing…? And you expect to be taken seriously?

[holmes]

*Originally posted by autz *
**Pssst. Holmes,

It’s the Aligator King and his seven sons

http://home.nc.rr.com/muppetsongs/songs/alligator_king **

Thanks Autz, I was wondering why I couldn’t the damn thing to hum right…I did remember the lemon drops and rubies and cheap cigars and…now of course I can’t stop humming the thing.

[Marley23]

In fact, I have an audio tape in the back of my closet somewhere with a little song I taped off the radio about a decade ago – “Shakespeare Rap,” which summarizes a half-dozen of Will Shakespeare’s plays through rap music. No gangstaz, no hos, no explicit lyrics(*), just education in an entertaining medium.

The drama group I joined in high school did something like this, too (a few years before I got there). I’m not a big rap fan, but it happens to go very well with Shakespeare. Anyone ever heard of The Bomb-itty of Errors? Rapped Shakespeare, rather large hit.

So, yes, I am unhappy at the schools focusing on “black culture.”

Nothing’s gonna convince you that this is just culture, not “black culture,” is it? You know the first musician to have a #1 rap single was white [I will not mention his name], and the first rap group to have a #1 rap album (The Beastie Boys) was also white? In fact, they were white Jewish guys.
This technique may not work. I have no idea. But if it DOES help, what’s the problem? And upon what is your conviction that it won’t work based? So far, it seems to be based on the fact that you don’t like this “black” music. Whatever changes are made in education, somebody’s always against it on principle, it’s always doom for the kids, ‘won’t somebody PLEASE think of the children?’
If “black culture” is a problem, why is it OK for schools to use Simon and Garfunkel or Mozart or Schoolhouse Rocks in the same capacity? Because it’s “white culture?” Or “American culture,” which is different from black culture?

By the way, December, your example is flawed. Judaism is a religion and actually has a culture associated with it (though there are obviously variations). That’d be something your parents pass on. Black is just a skin color. There’s no single black culture.

[Marley23]

Today’s Chicago Tribune reports a new approach to education. Is it a good idea?

Just a thought, december - do you think you’d do better if you actually ASKED people what they thought, or pretended you cared? All of your GD threads just state your opinion the topic, and it just turns into a stream of you badgering people for having different opinions, and them complaining that… well, you know what they say.

[Avalonian]

*Originally posted by Optihut *
I don’t like the spin this debate is getting. Instead of shouting “racist! racist!” would anybody actually care to return to the OP?

I have been talking about the OP… which I believe contained a racist statement. However, I’ve given december an opportunity to emplain himself if he wishes to do so. I’ll leave it at that for now.

*Originally posted by Optihut *
**I liked the count, Ernie and Bert just like the next guy, but as a TV show, this is merely an addition to what I learned at school. All the important things were learned in “traditional” classes. While it is commendable to try something new, this should be offered as an addition and not as a replacement to already effective methods. **

To make this statement, you have to prove that the methods that were effective for you have also been effective for the students discussed in the OP. I don’t think you can make that statement, and to do so, you’ll need some supporting data.

What you have to remember is that there is no magic bullet in education – there is no one method which is effective for everyone. “Hooked on Phonics,” to use a simple example, gets derided quite a bit, and for the most part, with good reason. I’m no fan of it myself, but it does work for some students. Does that mean that hardcore focus on phonics works for every child? Not on your life.

No one methodology, curriculum, philosophy, or idea works well for all children. Factors which change the methods that work for different groups of children, or individual children, include cultural background, geographical area, economic status, parents, how much sleep the child had the previous night, and what they had for breakfast that morning.

So, to say that what worked for you is effective for the students in the OP, I’m afraid you’ll have to cough up a cite.

[december]

*Originally posted by Avalonian *
I criticized your specific statement of the rap music approach being “racially divisive” as racist in nature. Unless you’d care to further expand on that and explain what you meant

It’s not complicated. The Rap approach will be primarily used for black pupils, according to the cited article (as I interpret its code words.) So, black children will be taught one type of music and non-black children will be taught a different type of music. That tends to divide the races.

The point of “unproved methods” is a completely separate one, which I note you also did not address,

It’s addressed it in the third, fourth and fifth points of the list in the OP. I was distressed at the quote from Principal.

Sandra Fontanez-Phelan…said her teachers are always on the lookout for innovative concepts. They have “one eye on what’s current and one eye on what’s in the future,” she said…

I would prefer that the principal and the teachers be on the lookout for what actually works in their classrooms and what has worked in similar settings. Innovation for its own sake is not desirable.

holmes if you don’t judge the effectiveness of Sesame Street by its educational impact, how would you evaluate it?

[Eva_Luna]

**december, ** a significant proportion of schools in low-income Chicago neighborhoods have either a predominantly Hispanic student body (as in Pilsen or Humboldt Park), or a highly mixed student body (as in Uptown or Rogers Park, not far from my apartment). “Low-income” is not a code word for “black” in Chicago. In fact, “minority” isn’t even a code word for “black” in Chicago. I suggest that if you are upset by this article or want clarification, that you write a letter to the editor.

(Oh, and BTW, living in NJ as you do, are you really a regular reader of the Trib? Or did this tidbit come to your attention through a favorite conservative columnist, as so many of your other OPs have?)

[december]

*Originally posted by Eva Luna *
(Oh, and BTW, living in NJ as you do, are you really a regular reader of the Trib? Or did this tidbit come to your attention through a favorite conservative columnist, as so many of your other OPs have?)

The latter.

[holmes]

holmes if you don’t judge the effectiveness of Sesame Street by its educational impact, how would you evaluate it?

December, Sesame Street is geared towards preschoolers who have access to a tv set. It teaches them ABC’S, basic word and number skills and I think to count to 20.

Once again, PRE-schoolers. You can’t judge its educational impact in the school system, because it isn’t designed for that. However, reading the posts in this thread, it should be clear to you that it has had some benefit.

As I can’t provide what you’ve asked for, I’ll provide something else. Another one of my kid’s favorite is Between the Lions, it uses songs and sketches and oh no has references to Africa…they are LIONS after all. This link talks about it
ROAR

[Avalonian]

*Originally posted by december *
It’s not complicated. The Rap approach will be primarily used for black pupils, according to the cited article (as I interpret its code words.)

And here’s the key: which code words mean “black” to you? “Urban”? “Low-income”?

Examine this carefully, december. At best, as Eva Luna pointed out, you’re somewhat ignorant of student demographics in the Chicago area, as well as the target market of rap music. At worst, your statement is racist, if you apply those code words to African-Americans only.

*Originally posted by december *
It’s addressed it in the third, fourth and fifth points of the list in the OP.

Opinion, opinion, and… let’s see… opinion! No facts. Address your points with facts, december, and you may make progress.

*Originally posted by december *
I would prefer that the principal and the teachers be on the lookout for what actually works in their classrooms and what has worked in similar settings. Innovation for its own sake is not desirable.

And again, you avoid my question about these untested (which I don’t agree that they are) methods. Can you prove that they don’t work? And why, if you have a problem with this, don’t you have a problem with the experimental and untested “No Child Left Behind” initiative?

Oh wait… I think we all know the answer to that one… :rolleyes:

Put it this way, december… the teachers are interested in using this method because they think it will work, with these students, in this place. Why would you stifle that possibility? Because you don’t think it will work? Upon what evidence do you base that assumption?

[holmes]

It’s not complicated. The Rap approach will be primarily used for black pupils, according to the cited article (as I interpret its code words.) So, black children will be taught one type of music and non-black children will be taught a different type of music. That tends to divide the races.

This where you get into trouble December when you assume, interpret and read into especially, especially when there is evidence to the contrary and you refuse to modify your stand.

You have been told numerous times that Rap isn’t just “black” music, that “black culture” is not separate from American Culture and now that the racial make-up of Chicago is not what you believe it to be.

The meanings of these ‘code’ words are your own and if you chose those words to mean “non-white”, then you’re going to be painted with an equally broad brush.

[december]

*Originally posted by holmes *
**The meanings of these ‘code’ words are your own and if you chose those words to mean “non-white”, then you’re going to be painted with an equally broad brush. **

Perhaps you think when people talk about “Chicago’s inner city,” they mean the Near North Side, because that the inside portion of the city.

[Eva_Luna]

*Originally posted by december *
**Perhaps you think when people talk about “Chicago’s inner city,” they mean the Near North Side, because that the inside portion of the city. **

If you haven’t been to Chicago in a few years, and you go to the Near North Side, you will be in for a shock. Much of the Cabrini-Green housing project has been torn down, the remainder is basically boarded up and/or occupied by a few squatters, and the land is rapidly being filled up by million-dollar townhouses and condo developments. (And BTW, the Near North Side is only a small fraction of Chicago’s inner city, even if you want to define it geographically. What about the Near South and Near West Sides?)

If you want to define “inner city” as something more like “areas with schools where a majority of pupils are eligible for food stamps, Medicaid, and/or reduced price school lunches,” such neighborhoods criscross the city and quite a number of suburbs, covering large areas with few to no black students. As I mentioned before, to name a few neighborhoods: Pilsen/Little Village and Humboldt Park (majority Hispanic), Uptown (large numbers of Hispanic and Southeast Asian students; I live walking distance from here and know the neighborhood quite well), Rogers Park (every immigrant group under the sun, from fresh-off-the-boat former Soviets, to various Middle Easterners, to Pakistanis, to Orthodox Jews with a zillion kids who would probably qualify for reduced-price lunches on sheer family size, even if they earned white-collar salaries).

Poor does not equal black; far from it, especially in a diverse urban area like this one. And you are just as likely around here to hear Eminem blasting out of the car stereo of a late-model sports car driven by the Assyrian child of immigrant parents, or for that matter out of an SUV driven by a spoiled white teenager from Wilmette, as you are to hear it blasted out of a beater being driven by a teenage gangbanger driving through the Robert Taylor Homes.

[december]

*Originally posted by Eva Luna *
the land is rapidly being filled up by million-dollar townhouses and condo developments.

Yes, it was the luxury townhouses I meant to refer to. My point was that “inner city” is a euphemism or code words. IMHO so were the references in the cited article.

Anyone is free to interpret the article differently, but I resent the name-calling. It’s not a question of what the words mean to me; it’s simply my guess as to what the words meant to the person who used them.

A question for those who disagree with my interpretation: * If rap is popular among all children, why should it especially used for students who are poor and urban?*