"School's a stage, kids are playaz" - Can rap teach kids math, history & 'MacBeth'?

Great Debates
81

December:

December you do realize they were talking about a play right? About an interpetation of MacBeth. That the “stereotypes” in this case were costumes? How is this any different than the “stereotypes” of West Side Story or Kiss Me Kate? Please, i want to know.

From the article: "Student “gangstas” sporting bandannas and enormous gold chains rapped the Shakespearean play as English teacher Darren Tuggle mixed hip-hop music in front of the stage. Some wore trousers so baggy the pant legs trailed behind as they walked.

On the show’s poster, a menacing, tattooed man with a shaved head beckoned students with the words “The Original Mac is Back” in graffiti-style writing.

…Lady Macbeth, wearing tight black pants, was gesticulating wildly and rapping, “Come, thick night, and pall thee in the dunnest smoke of hell/That my keen knife see not the wound it makes/Nor heaven peep through the blanket of the dark/ To cry `Hold, hold!’”…"

Notice they didn’t bastard the original text…and the author used creative license in his headline.

No December we don’t agree.

82

West Side Story is based in New York and its characters are so made up. Kiss Me Kate is based in Baltimore, and its characters are so made up. The play within a play is based on old Italy, and its characters are so made up. These bits of makeup are not for the sake what some audience is presumed to want. They’re a part of the story.

I know that it’s common to do Shakespeare in some more modern guise. I’ve seen several of those productions. But, what these kids did was to graft gangsta only Shakespeare, because their stereotype of the students told them that the students would like that. Incidentally, one reason actors translate Shakespeare into some other setting is for the sake of variety. But, these pupils weren’t jaded Shakespeare viewers. Any costume would have been a novelty.

I agree that this was a good thing.

Yes. It’s even possible that the author may not have written the headline. I believe the newspaper generally does that.

83

Interesting. You see I would have compared the West Side Story and Kiss Me Kate, not because “they’re charcters are made up…” but because they were a modern retelling of the classics…using modern language, fashions and attitudes. But you seemed to deliberately go out of your way to connect those elements with the “gangster Macbeth” interesting.

I wonder if you feel the same way about Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo and Juliet. Which uses Gang Violence and modern “urban” clothing? Is that ‘stereotyping’ too?

You really don’t think that West Side Story and Kiss Me Kate, weren’t created “for the sake of what some audience is presumed to want”…?I guess the Bard, never created characters and situations, that he presumed the audience might want either…?

84

Interesting December Interesting. You see I would have compared the West Side Story and Kiss Me Kate, not because “they’re charcters are made up…” but because they were a modern retelling of the classics…using modern language, fashions and attitudes. But you seemed to deliberately go out of your way not to connect those elements with the “gangster Macbeth” Interesting.

I wonder if you feel the same way about Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo and Juilet . Which uses Gang Violence and modern “urban” clothing? Is that ‘stereotyping’ too, or is that some how different than the Gangster MacBeth? Why? Or is it just that you’re so out of touch, with the world, that you just don’t get it?

You really don’t think that West Side Story and Kiss Me Kate, weren’t created “for the sake of what some audience is presumed to want”…? I guess the Bard, never created characters and situations, that he presumed the audience might want either…?

85

I have a feeling that you may not have seen Kiss Me Kate recently. It’s a light comedy set in the modern day about an actress who loathes her ex-husband, but who is starring in a show of* The Taming of the Shrew* with him. Included within* Kiss Me Kate *is a musical adaptation of a few scenes from The Taming of the Shrew, They’re not ever done in modern language or modern dress. In fact, Cole Porter cleverly used some of Shakespeare’s language in a several of his songs.

You’re on better grounds with West Side Story, which is intentionally based on Romeo and Juliet, but re-written to take place in modern New York. I haven’t seen Baz Luhrmann’s Romeo and Juliet, using Gang Violence and modern “urban” clothing. I did see a movie a few years of that pretty much used the original lines of Richard III, but with his regime represented as 20th Century fascists. (I kept wondering how they would modernize the famous line, “A horse, a horse…”)

Were these shows all created for an audience? Of course. But, they weren’t created to kowtow to a stereotype of what a particular audience was presumed to want. Richard Loncraine and Ian McKellen didn’t move Richard III to a Nazi-type setting to make a German audience feel more comfortable. These shows were done in different settings to demonstrate the timelessness of the themes.

If these shows had been done according to the recommended educational approach, every single one of them would have used Gangsta garb. Gangsa Macbeth. Gangsta Richard III. Gangsta Romeo and Juliet. Gangsta The Taming of the Shrew.

86

It did use the original text, it was just edited, as always happens. None of the words were modernized. And “A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse” was used to great (comic) effect.

Now you’re just lying, since that’s not what was done with the pieces. I have no idea what would be wrong with this anyway, since all of these plays have been reinterpreted in dozens of ways - in recent years, I’ve no doubt there have been “gangsta” versions of them.

87

Maybe if you’re black!

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Oh, and yes, for the record- reporters don’t write their own headlines, it’s an editor thing.

89

I guess that I am not seeing the distinction. And I’d imagine that for children, it’s not the ‘timelessness’ of the themes that will draw them in, but the currency. ‘How do these dried up crusty old dude’s plays relate to ME?’

You are making the assumption that the educative process stops here. Perhaps what the teachers are attempting is to make the children more self-motivated by showing them how ‘timeless’ works of art can be interpreted so that they actually mean something.

I think it’s worth a shot. I just think that it’s sad that you do not see how the method itself is viable, given the popularity of both song-based learning for younger children, and re-interpretation (i.e. the films mentioned) in stimulating young adults to want to learn. It just seems as though your only objection is to the culture behind the interpretation.

90

Maybe I was unclear. The recommended educational approach in this debate was described in the article cited in the OP. The approach is to make widespread use specifically of Rap and Hip-Hop. The article says:

91

I could’ve sworn in the play, in the “real” story, the characters spoke and dressed as real people…but maybe I’m remembering the movie, so let’s assume that I am. Anyway the play is still based however loosely on the Taming of Shrew; not just in the actual play, but in the “real” story. Is not the actor’s wife a Shrew who is also ‘tamed’ in “real” life and the play? Am I mistaken? If so, please clarify.

This where you’re using selective reasoning. The “Gangster” THEME and please note the ‘Gangster’ term is used by the reporter (who like you only sees RAP as Gangsters), not the students nor teachers. Is doing the exact same things that you say the other plays are doing…using different settings.

The recommended educational approach is to allow the kids, who live in that community and I think know more about what their peers may find interesting that you or I, to direct the subject matter. You seem unable to come to grips with this ‘stereotyping’…once again, that’s the fashion. The fashion is a universal one, one shared by lots of young people.

Let’s try this…If I put on a play of Macbeth in Texas and the kids decide to do it as a Western, in cowboy hats, six-shooters and boots is that a stereotype are they kowkowing to? Or is it a reality of where these kids live? What about if they do it as Nuns, in habits are they stereotyping?

You’ve missed the point and assuming again. Why would creative people do the same format everytime? and for the last time, all RAP isn’t gangster. Yes, they may never do a ‘traditional’ version, but that doesn’t mean that everyone they do will be in baggy pants. Their community is a rich one, and they have lots of history and images to choose from…just not the ones you like.

92

December, you are ignoring the word foster, the article doesn’t say that they were going to replace traditional studies with Rap and HipHop, but to include it…to allow the kids to relate to what’s going on.

Try to absorb this, in the play the Kids used traditional dialogue , they didn’t use slang, they didn’t “urbanize it”. That would have been the perfect opportunity to do so, yet they didn’t .

Why not? Perhaps the teacher wanted them to respect the language, but also make it accessible to them? To allow them to comprehend it and apply it to their own lives, which is what any well written play is supposed to do.

Your arguments are getting weaker and weaker and they weren’t that strong to begin with. Once again, it appears that you only problem with this, is that these urban kids, chose their ‘culture’ over yours.

93

Shakespeare’s not changed one whit when the actors dress in “gangsta”-style clothes. They’re using the same language, and the fact that the kids have made the language into rap music notes at least the fact that they’re learning poetic meter now. At the very LEAST. And at best, they’re doing a closer analysis of the words that are actually said and understanding them much better than white pages with black letters.

Some kids learn best through just reading over something. Some kids have to hear something to get it. And some kids need to “touch” it somehow, to make what they’re learning into a personal experience, if they will ever understand it.

In my high school senior English class, where we did Macbeth, we sat down in our chairs, scanned over the text, and read it out loud. One girl was Lady Macbeth, one guy was Banquo, you get the idea. Did it work? It worked vaguely well, because the kids were already interested in Shakespeare.

What worked better was when the teacher required the students to group off and memorize/perform a scene from the play in a style of our choosing. The actual text had to remain the same, but we could be creative as to how we presented it. We had an absolute blast.

Innovation is necessary, because kids are changing every year. Their interests change, their values, their attention spans…and while WHAT they are taught need not change because of this – everyone still needs to learn their math, their reading, their history, their science – the HOW must change, because the same techniques do not work for every student. Nor, naturally, will they work for every school.

Just because something new does not mean it is good, but neither does it mean that it is bad. You say that these innovations must be tested before they are used in a widespread manner, but how would you suggest testing them? There is only one way I am aware of to test a teaching method – to use it on students.

And using music in class IS a tried-and-tested method. It’s been used, it works. Whether you like rap and hip-hop or not, it will be much more effective than classical music for a lot of kids…classical music’s the stuff they’re forced to listen to, but rap’s what they’ll listen to on purpose. It has a strong rhythm, it’s easy to understand, and (shocker!) some rap musicians have, as other posters have pointed out, very complex structures and metaphor schemes.

My opinion? Let them test it, see how it works. Look at the schools it’s used in for the next five years and see if the numbers change.

94

December, it’s been a couple of pages and lots of opinions. I’d like to give you the chance to clarify your position on this, since the OP. Do you still hold by it, or have you modified your stance?

What opinions, if any have you changed and why?

95

I’m wondering how anyone living in northern NJ could be so consistently ignorant about both black people and rap music.

Maybe I can get Queen Latifah (who hails from the Newark area) and december to have lunch together one day. Hilarity will ensue, guarantee.

96

I’d pay good money to see that! :smiley:

97

I’ll be happy to attend. You would have been amused at my cousin’s 60th birthday party. Congressman Jerrold Nadler, an old friend of hers attended. At one point, my cousin brought me over to Nadler and introduced me as an oddity – a Republican. :eek: In tht room I was more of a misfit or minority than my black cousin or my gentile wife.

The relationship between the actor and his ex-wife has some parallels to the relationship between the characters they play.

OK, but suppose that the school, not the kids, had made the decision to put on the play as a Western? And, suppose the school boasts about a progam to use six-shooters, boots and cowboy hats to teach mathematics, history, English, etc.? That’s parallal to my understanding of the rap/hip-hop program described in the cite.

holmes, ISTM that our differences concern our understanding of what the program described in the article actually consists of. You and some other posters read the article differently than I did. My change of opinion is to give more weight to the possibility that I might have misunderstood what will be done under this program.

98

Sorry to be arriving late to this debate, but I have a few points to share. You see, I am a teacher at the “inner city” school where this production of MacBeth took place. It is Kelvyn Park, which is located on the northwest side of the city in a working class neighborhood that is predominately Latino. The demographics of our school are 93% Latino, 6% African-American, and 1% white. So those who assumed that the students were all African-American were mistaken. Jasmaine, who played Lady MacBeth, is African-American, but the remaining cast members, many of whom are in my AP US History class, are Latino.

For those who commented on the functional illiteracy of “inner city” students, please be aware that these are some of the brightest and highest achieving students you will ever see, with high GPAs, excellent test scores, and numerous college scholarships. Stop stereotyping all “inner city” students as a bunch of illiterate thugs when it is far from the reality.

Finally, regarding the criticism of Dr Phelan, our principal, you should know that she has instituted some wonderful changes in our school this year, raising standards and holding both teachers and students more accountable. Moreover, she personally took the young man who played MacBeth (Vince Paiz) to a recent movie audition, based on his performance in MacBeth.

Why is it that those who have never been within 10 miles of an “inner city” public school feel that they are experts on what goes on in these schools? Boston Public ain’t even close to reality, folks.

99

Thank you Frostillicus. Evidently many of my assumptions were incorrect. My apologies.

100

Thank you for a sincere apology. I just get so steamed when people put down these kids without making an attempt to get to know them. Believe me, I am no fan of rap music either, but the interest that this play generated in not only the kids who were in it, but the students who paid money to come see it on a Friday evening was amazing. (Think about it. Students paying money to see MacBeth!) Darren Tuggle and Bethany Kaufmann, the teachers who organized this play, spent a LOT of time working with the kids to get it right. Innovation is extremely necessary in school, even if it doesn’t always work. (If we had to wait until studies proved a methodology worked before trying it, we would lose all creativity, which doesn’t improve the teaching for anyone.)