Science and Faith

Yes, science has a concept of proof. (To be more precise, it is about approaching proof, but for practical purposes it is considered proof.) It just is not always the same concept as proof in an imagined entirely deductive system … (which only exist as theoretical constructs or by excepting their axioms, anyway). For science proof is an acceptable range of uncertainty.

What exactly do you think science is all about?

And I’d still like a defintion of religion from you, since you said you didn’t mean your first stab at it.

And to go back to the OP:

Another thread is asking what would it take for a believer to stop believing in God. VW Woman has answered

which I respect and hold up as a model of religious faith. Within that religious knowledge system God is proven by axiomatic definition.

Compare this to faith in a scientific model. What would it take for me to become convinced that some scientific model is false? Another model that fits all the data better and/or enough new evidence that is inconsistent with the current model, but, preferably is consistent with the predictions of the new model. For some extant models the weight of current evidence is so huge that the challenge to dispute it would be hard to imagine. These models are considered proven, from a scientific usage of “proof”, but not proven to absolute certainty. This kind of “proof” is not rational to you?

I have made a personal resolution that I will no longer attempt to define things any more stringently than the conversation demands. That is usually not very stringently. And if, as it is, we happen to exclude certain things we’d like to include or include things we’d like to exclude, then so be it.

So, barring that, a definition of religion. I’d say: a worldview or limited worldview (one that only applies to a certain sphere of existence, you might say) which includes faith as a means of gaining knowledge. And now I would say that faith is knowledge gained from incomplete incomplete induction, which is to say, knowledge that someone has that, even granting incomplete induction as a form of knowledge, still doesn’t follow. I’m afraid I don’t want to delve much deeper than that, and I am sure to wobble and veer in all sorts of directions on religion and faith, mainly because I do not myself recognize that those words apply to me, so it is hard for me to pin them down. I tend to say all sorts of silly things regarding religion and faith (among other topics) because it is hard for me to associate myself with them in the first place.

But, my beef remains with a notion of science which asserts that it never proves anything. I feel this borders on religion, if not being a religion itself. I think the only way you can accept that science never proves anything is if:

  1. You accept, within your science, that an external world exists independent of perception (I think the boldest philosophical statement there can possibly be, but it is the next bit that troubles me, not the previous one) that has facts, which is to say, truth is immanent or transcendent.
    (if this is not the case, then science can prove all sorts of things, even given contrary evidence)

  2. You accept that math is analytically a priori true, and accept Hume’s Fork (which asserts a distinction between necessarily true things like math and contingently true things like empirical propositions) (I don’t want to mess with synthetic a priori propositions here, though I suppose I could be motivated to do so; if I were to do so, it would necessarily alter 3).

  3. You accept that analytical a priori statements cannot “say” anything about the world (else they lose their status of “absolutely certain”)(here is where the synthetic a priori can come in; again, my knowledge of Kant and subsequent Kantians is sparse, so I’d rather not tread here if I don’t have to, and I’m sure there is plenty to argue here without it!)

  4. That the best scientific theories are framed in the form of mathematical statements with additional contingencies thrown in (which correspond to empirical statements now); and, that they present themselves in such a way that if they were wrong, the act of testing the theory could indicate that.
    (this is, I think, a good way to state that scientific theories must be falsifiable)

  5. That science can also never prove something false just like it can never prove anything true.

I think (5) is absolutely necessary from a logical perspective, and serves (to me) to make the nonsense complete (though it unfortunately doesn’t create some kind of internal contradiction): there is no point to creating falsifiable theories unless we can prove something false, but then it is inconsistent to say that science never proves anything if we’ve accepted logic into science (if logic and rationality, as you say, permeates it) since science can prove all sorts of things (false).

That the Sun doesn’t revolve around the Earth is no less of an empirical proposition than that the Earth revolves around the Sun, though I am somehow supposed to expect that one can be proven and the other not? Of course not. Then what is the purpose of falsifiable theories? They afford a test. But what is a “test” that has no conclusion? I mean, we haven’t proved anything!

You choose to qualify it with: “To be more precise, it is about approaching proof, but for practical purposes it is considered proof”. Why you choose this phrasing escapes me. What are “practical purposes” if not the domain of science? And here: “*For science proof is an acceptable range of uncertainty. *” And how do we determine that? [shakes head] I think the notion is fundamentally flawed, or totally mystical. I see no middle ground here.

Either science proves things or it does not. If it does, it has its own conception of proof that is not a mathematical one (though, for me, this statement still doesn’t apply, I think we can say something is just as certain as mathematical propositions in science, but that’s me). If it doesn’t, then we will sit here arguing until it does (damn it! :D).

The joys of simulposting!

Be careful with most of your post because you use “logic”, a division of mathematics, to analyze the system of which it is a subdivision of, and all sorts of troubles result from that (of which you are more informed than I :))

I’ll briefly respond to the last first.

There you go again, with your either/or yes/no view of the world (Holding back on excessive smilie use … arrgh.) Science mostly accepts on faith that a reality exists outside of our perception (I hedge because of the whole quantum bit) and that our perceptions have some correlation with it. We accept that the language of mathematics has allowed for some wonderful metaphors to be written about this reality, and to the best of our knowledge, Euclid’s initial sets of postulates are true. Those we take on a faith which is near absolute, because they’ve held up to every inductive test imaginable for so long. HOWEVER … if someone analyzed quantum or cosmological scale phenomenae with a math that was based on a different set of postulates, and it explained all that has been observed better, and accurately made new predictions which were confirmed, I’d accept it.

Whoa! Back the truck up a bit, mac. What are you saying is “proof”? Do you mean 1) deductively reasoned proof (of which there is some in science, but it is generally considered to be ultimately based on) 2) inductively reasoned proof (which is roughly the Baconian definition of scientific proof), or 3) some other proof you have yet to describe?

And there is, if I may point out, an internal contradiction in #5. If science can never prove anything, then it can never prove that it never proved anything. You must be appealing to something outside of science (what is it?) in order to make that statement because, if true, “science” sure couldn’t have proved it!

Well, I took it as a matter of course that we would deduce from these principles or otherwise accept it axiomatically that science never proves anything. I am trying to believe that people think this, and construct a corresponding view of science which accounts for it.

I see no clear border between deductive and inductive proofs, but that’s for my math thread. But if science proved anything, it would be inductively.

Also: science wouldn’t prove that it could or could not prove things (I’m not sure what sort of investigation that would take). You’d find a rather viscious circle in either case, either the question is begged or there is (as you show) a contradiction.