That’s more social Darwinism. Again do you believe in social Darwinism across the board? Or just in this area?
A social Darwinist should believe:
You are not entitled to welfare.
You are not entitled to health care.
You are not entitled to housing.
You are not entitled to job training.
You are not entitled to education.
You are not entitled to protection from crime/fire.
ie. Everyone has to survive and accomplish everything on their own merit and no one deserves help with anything.
But in most countries we decided people WERE entitled to those things because it made sense to try to help them and give those things to everyone. Why can’t we extend that to love, sex, and relationships and try to make that work?
You also seem to suffer from the same diseased and mentally crippled notion that this means “someone has to get raped”. I already said sex robots for example would be a perfect solution. So why would that be a problem? I also suggested therapeutic sex workers like they have in Britain and support groups might help. Why wouldn’t that be better than just telling people to suffer until they kill themselves and quit whining about it?
Porn is not even necessarily good for people. Search “depression porn” and you will find lots of people saying porn causes depression. It’s been a common subject in the media lately. A lot of guys are trying to quit porn.
But go ahead and tell me how evil I am for saying we ought to try to help these people. Your perspective of just telling them to go jerk off and die in a corner is so much more compassionate.
Uh? It ‘sucks’ if women dares to have preferences? All women must be equally open to all men as sexual partners, regardless of looks, personality, height, wealth, athletic ability/whatever?
How is this any different from the flip side? Just on that website it lists that men prefer women who are slender and no older than 18. How is it that men having preferences in partners is apparently ‘only natural’, while if a woman has a preference it’s sucky and unfair and whatever??
How are you missing the point so badly? I realize you are partly trolling, but it’s difficult for me to comprehend somebody so sociopathic they cannot manifest the basic empathy so understand another person’s POV.
It’s not evil to want to help people.
It’s evil to assume the way to help these assholes is by ignoring their clear psychological issues by telling women they (1) are objects who have no actual agency of their own in choosing partners and are merely brainlessly following inbuilt biological imperatives, (2) should therefore be forced to be treated as objects (still with no agency of their own) by more different men, and (3) they should ignore any of the massive red flags (violence being a pretty big fucking flag) manifested at disturbingly frequency by this group.
It’s still further evil to assume these men have no agency of their own and their problems are mostly or entirely physical when (1) there are solutions that do not involve treating women as chattel, (2) their actual issue isn’t with a lack of physical intimacy but with their perceived access to ‘attractive’ (however they define this) women, and (3) their preferred solution involves waiting for their personal manic pixie dream girl to simply fall into their laps while they whine on the internet.
Help isn’t telling them “ok, we’ll take your assumptions at face value - here’s a woman to use as you will”. Help is dealing with their obvious and troubling psychological issues, which are exacerbated by modern society and by enablers telling them they are “right”.
Evolutionary biology says we are all following our inbuilt biological imperatives (both men and women). Should that be outlawed?
No one has to be treated like an object, but I know lots of guys who get laid every few weekends with different girls that treat women like objects, so that’s not unique.
Of course we should recognize negative thoughts being manifested by the group - that’s the entire point.
The most awfully depressing section on that page in my opinion was the section on autism which is not physical or curable.
Again, there’s an article on guys who would be involuntarily celibate (in the correct broad definition) and are getting help for it.
Some of Marianne’s clients are young men, others are spending their pensions, some are married.
And some are disabled .
It’s no big deal to her or them - they may need a little longer to get undressed or she might have to visit them at home as her house wasn’t built with disabled access in mind.
But they all leave her content, she explains: “Most of my disabled clients have repeat visits so I assume they are happy.
“I saw a man with a brain injury about three or four times.
“He was very happy and smiled a lot after and his carer said he looked forward to seeing me.”
This week, author Kathy Lette and model Katie Price, whose children both suffer from autism, spoke about taking their boys to a sex worker so they could experience the intimacy the rest of us take for granted .
It’s a taboo subject for many but for those disabled people who struggle to make physical connections with others, sexual contact gives enormous pleasure.*
Where does that fit into the crazy shit you’re talking about? Why is what she did there for that man by her own free will and choice so evil?
And let’s say on the science of autism they ARE right? You say we shouldn’t “enable” them by agreeing even with the things they’re right about?
Part of the problem with this discussion is that there are different definitions of “incel”.
Actual involuntarily celibate people. This will be extremely rare. I’m sure there are people who just cannot have sexual intercourse who want to, due to physical and/or mental handicaps, and so forth. But again, these will be rare.
People who feel like they are involuntarily celibate (they think they are Type 1). The term “incel” arose from such a group, founded by a woman who felt like she was unable to find a person to have sex with them. In reality, what these people actually mean is that the people they want to have sex with won’t have sex with them. This group contains men and women who, ironically, interact online about how they can’t have sex. (Why won’t they hook up with each other then? Because they don’t want to. Involuntary my ass.)
Incel culture. This grew out of the Type 2 incel group, and even hijacked the original incel forum. This is the group that most of the people in this thread are objecting to. They are misogynistic, sometimes endorse violence, and have embraced the aforementioned killers as heroes. They feel like victims that are owed something from women, and are bitter and entitled. It’s a toxic, horrible group.
I pity the Type 1 people. I understand the Type 2 people, because I’ve felt like that at times in my life, but I also know how full of crap they are (and I was). The Type 3 people are sick and twisted, and need serious therapy, not a bunch of like-minded sickos who will enable and egg on one another.
Do you hand over your wallet to every panhandler you come across ? Cuz if not, thass Social Darwinismn boo ! I mean it’s not, but it is by your definition of the idiom.
Here, I’ll try to show you guys what I mean. This is the BBC documentary I was talking about:
Flip through the parts where they interview the three incels and see if you can notice what’s off about them. I’ll summarize my impression of them:
Catfish guy - Obviously fucking insane. Thinks he’s an “incel supervillain” for catfishing women. DEFINITELY something wrong with him mentally, and I’m not talking about just the behavior. Even if he wasn’t catfishing women, listen to how he talks and tell me if this is a normal person or not. He very clearly is not normal. He doesn’t talk normally. He doesn’t laugh at the normal times. etc. He either has autism or some other sort of mental disability that runs way deeper than his catfishing. I mean his brain is not normal.
Matt - Really good looking guy. I’d say average to above average facially in my opinion, but he comes off exactly like Sheldon from Big Bang and I bet he has Asperger’s (ie. high functioning autism) which is the same thing Elliot Rodger had. He sounds like a typical Sperg.
James - At least average or above looking. By his own telling and it fits looking at him he had a bad childhood and developed paranoia and anxiety that prevented him from interacting with women and now he’s 31 and never kissed or been romantic with a girl before.
2/3 of those guys didn’t have any hate. Matt talked about how he uses incel forums for connection. I honestly believe of those three James or Matt might be fixable cases but not for sure. The fact that James hasn’t gotten better in 31 years from his mental problems should tell you it’s not that easy to just fix a mental problem. He obviously understands the issues but he still can’t fix them. Matt’s good looking enough so MAYBE he can get a really homely woman or a girl who can put up with his Aspie “quirkiness”. Definitely if he flew to Thailand he’d get a girl there just based on his looks/race. Catfishman is too broken.
Do you see this video and think “These are all monsters who need to be put down!” I mean honestly, if all the bullshit about them all being mass murderers was correct, wouldn’t there be a death toll in the tens of thousands by now?
That’s really the crux of the “issue”. Neverminding all the toxic bollocks that come with the culture ; if literally all you want, seek, expect or require of a relationship is sex, with a person of either sex, recreation (for the purpose of) : you don’t even need money. All you need do is lower your standards. No, lower than that. Lower. I SAID LOWER. Theeeere you go. Now get to the nearest bar 'round 2 AM and make a decision you’ll possibly not even regret.
Just a reminder that nobody knows what your actual point is here, if you have one, because you’re arguing against stuff nobody has said. They can have sex robots if they want. Nobody has proposed the death penalty. What has been said repeatedly is nobody is entitled to another human being submitting to an unhealthy relationship just because the first person really wants it. Which means nobody is entitled to a relationship, period.
High functioning autism and Asperger’s are not the same thing, FYI.
Okay. But that doesn’t address what I said which is that there are other solutions that could be offered by society other than just saying this over and over.
Also:
“Asperger’s syndrome is part of the autism spectrum disorder, also known as ASD. According to medical experts, it is a mild form of autism and generally manifests without extreme mental disabilities. The main outward characteristics of a person with Asperger’s syndrome are poor social skills, lacking nonverbal communication, and being clumsy.”
You’re welcome. So how do you propose we cure autism and other incurable mental conditions that the psychiatric community has failed at for decades of these people’s lives, fix their loneliness/suicidality/isolation, and let them experience approximations of some normal life experiences like affection/sex?
Life sucks in some ways for lots of people. Some can’t walk and it can’t be cured. Some can’t see and it can’t be cured. Name anything that baseline people can do, and there will be people that can’t do it and it can’t be cured.
Even the term “lower your standards” is a misnomer. Incels, who feel like the world is shallow and discriminates against them for their appearance, are shallow and discriminate against potential partners because of their appearance. The “perfect 10” person they want to sleep with or even have a relationship with might be a miserable person they have nothing in common with. The person who doesn’t look perfect might be a better match. What incels don’t get is that as you get to know a person, and you are compatible, they will become more physically attractive to you. And vice versa.
It’s not that their standards are high, their standards are wrong.
What would be wrong with permitting the existence for example an industry of Sex Therapists like her who enjoy and take pride in her work because it gives people something they can’t get otherwise? Imagine she goes over James’ house, she gives him a smile, hugs him, kisses him, and asks him how he is doing. She goes in and they sit on the couch for a bit and cuddle. She asks him some simple questions to show an interest in him and talks a bit. Then they have sex. They hang out a bit more. After the hour is up, she leaves and says “See you next week/month/whatever.”
Do you really believe that wouldn’t help a lot of guys going through this type of situation? How could it not help at least some?
If a woman chooses of her own autonomy to do this work then that is her choice to make. I don’t see why the law should prohibit it or why people don’t talk about these sorts of things like they wouldn’t help. It’s not that you can’t get a prostitute nowadays most places - it’s that it’s illegal so you can actually go to jail for it, and the stigma is huge. Most of our culture tells men if you have to pay for sex you should be ashamed of yourself. But I don’t think that’s how it should be at all. Prostitution has been around forever and it will remain forever.
What do you think? In 50 years sex robots might be good enough this will be irrelevant but until then you’re gonna end up with a lot more incels if the trends continue.
Sometimes, I find that if people keep saying the same thing to me over and over, it’s because I’m missing something. In other words: go on. What is your point, and how has it not been adequately addressed by the many people saying “sure, but there are all these options available that are neither suicide nor the indentured servitude of a suitably attractive human woman?”
You said “i.e. high functioning autism.” High functioning autism is a thing, and Asperger’s is a thing too. They’re not the same, and what you just quoted doesn’t say they’re the same. All ducks are birds, not all birds are ducks, etc.
Not to be glib, but getting off the internet can do wonders to improve one’s mental health and outlook. Nowadays, it’s almost the same thing as saying “I need different friends”. So if you don’t want to view yourself as an incel… don’t hang out with incels?
Anyway, why go to a group of guys who admittedly can’t get a date… for advice on how to get women? I don’t discuss fucking with my priest, so why discuss the same with… well… incels?