I seem to pair bond with men on the spectrum. Don’t ask me why, I don’t know. For purposes of this discussion though, you say they want relationships…I can give you a brief rundown of problems that might arise with autistic men in relationships, and incels of course have no idea of this. No matter, we’re on to legalized sex work already, which is not a relationship, it’s just guaranteed sex…and you’re right, it may do them a world of good, the ones who would lower themselves to that.
We run into this periodically and it never fails to amaze me…that we need to find a way to fix the most misogynist, rage-fueled, openly degrading men we can think of, by fucking them. Just amazing.
Again I don’t think that’s a fair judgment to say incels are the “most misogynist, rage-fueled, openly degrading men we can think of”. I think guys like Ted Bundy or Josef Fritzl would have most incels beat on that metric. And I think we can reasonably say some incels are just lonely men with mental or physical problems who can’t get dates, love, or sex.
You laugh, but on incel forums this is one of their more moderate solutions.
They honestly act like sex is bread that should be rationed, or more likely horded by them.
As for the excuses? Same old same old. If society changes its standards it won’t be by incels whining about how they are short. All they have is a bunch of psychotic solutions in toxic forums brimming with digital self-harm.
This again. Then how do you explain the fact that some men who are clearly not misogynists like the ones in the BBC documentary call themselves incel? Or that many women now call themselves incels as well?
I just searched and found all these articles about women who say they are incels:
So should someone tell all these women they’re also using the wrong word? Those articles are all from 2018/2019 so they are current. Which word should they use? And what word should we use for the nonhateful male incels? How many more words do we need to accurately describe all these variations of people who want sex/love but aren’t getting it?
This word-war nonsense people keep circling to sounds like empty SJW culture war bullshit to me. SJWs always want to talk about words all day and instruct you on which words are okay for which thing even if it’s illogical and cumbersome.
An incel is an involuntary celibate. Some incels are men. Some incels are women. Some incels have misogynists beliefs. Some incels do not.
That is a far better way to use the word that actually still makes sense in the context of all the above. And we don’t have to come up with a dozen new words because that word can only mean one very narrow thing now because of no good reason.
I’ve done okay for myself in dating. I can definitely say I’m glad I went to university before Tinder was a thing. I’m not the tallest or best looking guy, so I have relied mostly on my personality to get women.
I can see how the current dating system could make things harder for most men than before.
Looking at that a bit, that is interesting they got all those studies together. But those studies only tell part of the story.
Like with women preferring dark triad men. Yes women prefer them, but only for short term mating. My understanding is that for long term mating, dark triad personality traits are a negative and not a positive. Which makes sense.
Either way, by a person’s late 30s nearly 80% of people are married or have been married. I’m sure an even higher % have been in committed relationships. So people of all looks and personalities end up in relationships.
In this case it’s warranted. You don’t assign the word “incel” to people because of the hateful connotations, which you know nothing about by your own admission. “Involuntary celibate” might work if we really need an all-inclusive word, I mean the extra letters are free, but I would defer to others on that.
Sure. Why not? I have a top tier personality in my opinion in terms of wit, intelligence, charisma, etc. I also have a bit of some Dark Triad traits myself and maybe a bit of ADHD too. The Dark Triad stuff and even ADHD interestingly enough are supported by that data as attractive to women.
The studies linked didn’t say personality didn’t matter. They just said it didn’t matter in the ways most people think. And that it matters less than Looks. One of the studies there says the importance is: Looks > Personality > Money for both genders.
For my part, nowadays I do better on speed dating than I do online, since I get swiped left online, but IRL I can make a girl laugh etc. Most dating culture is becoming more swipe oriented so it’s easy to see how looks can become even more important. Most of my dating was before online dating was a big thing.
I also don’t believe most of your personality is malleable. Eg. You can’t teach someone to be smarter, or less autistic. Most people’s personalities don’t change that much over their lives, except perhaps after major trauma or over many years of failure/success.
Yeah except I linked many recent articles that are not using the word the way you are suggesting it must be used, and are instead using it the way I am using it. So I think my usage is entirely fine, and as I said, it is far simpler, more correct, and more logical.
Let’s look at the implication of your usage.
Say we have an “incel forum”. Then say a man who is involuntarily celibate starts posting on it but he harbors no misogyny and no violent thoughts. He is just a lonely man looking to talk to people in the same position. Let’s say a certain percent of the users of that forum can be described that way on an ongoing basis.
Then what? Are we saying even the “involuntarily celibate” men using incel forums aren’t really all incel? So only a certain percent of “incel” men are actually incel? Do you not see how cumbersome and brain melting that becomes?
In no other area is a word warped like this. Eg. We don’t call all suicide bombers “muslims” and then say we can’t use that word for other muslims anymore because it only applies to ones that strap bombs to themselves so we will call normal muslims “followers of islam” from now on. We call them “radical muslims” or “muslim extremists” and still use the word muslim to describe the whole group.
Why can’t we use the same logic here? How is it not more logical to use it the way I am and the women in those articles are?
I’m sure you have plenty of more ideas. Please share them.
Personally, I have no problems with legalizing prostitution. But I also want there to be good policing to prevent trafficking. Where the line is, I’m not sure.
You’re a real pleasant guy to talk to, you know that? I can almost imagine you sneering through the screen with every reply.
I already said the only ideas I can come up with. Prostitution now. Sex robots eventually. Or maybe we can make our culture less sex oriented so people don’t think it’s as important as they do now. I was thinking maybe that’s what’s happened in Japan, and while people here want to tell me I’m wrong about the Japanese, no one can seem to explain how they managed to get such massive celibacy levels without all the “incel problems” that the west supposedly has. It would be useful to figure that out I think. I’ve offered my initial theories on that.
When I was writing about autistic men’s suicide rates a minute ago, I was also wondering if in person support groups would be good for this sort of thing. I don’t know what the true solution to autism is. It seems like a pretty bleak and lonely existence. I’m sure as fuck glad I don’t have to deal with that.
I sneer because there is no scientific study that could or should trump consent. If women don’t wanna fuck somebody for whatever reason, that’s their prerogative. It’s up to the guys to make themselves fuckable. Either with money or, God forbid, improving their personality. I feel real bad for autistic guys who have a hard time with this. But…sorry, you can’t impose your will upon the unwilling. Which, inevitably, is where all these incel conversations lead. ALL of them.
I don’t see why that should have to be the end point of the conversation. That’s pretty narrow minded to think we can’t solve a problem unless someone gets raped.
The femcel cites were interesting. Not the older, divorced or widowed women using the term unknowingly, and not the ripsnorting bullshit at Quillette, but the ones who claimed to be a part of the incel boards. Note that one had to pretend to be a man in the forums. I’m not sure what this proves to you. It supports my saying that “incel” is not indicative of both genders, because the misogyny is unavoidable and women are typically banned from there. The term is going to be problematic no matter how determined you are to restore its rightful place in the world.
