I have dug up a lot of information about Scientology. It seems it has been banned in some European countries (Germany, maybe others?). I am not looking to discuss their beliefs, just want to know where are they banned and exactly what have they been convicted of? I mean, believing stupid things is hardly a crime. What have they done exactly that got them banned?
I would think that if they broke any laws it would be persons who would be convicted rather than the group as such. Can anyone enlighten me?
Germany basically said that Scientology is a scam, not a religion. After all, what religion makes you pay thousands of dollars before they even tell you what they believe? Even most Scientologists have no idea what their religion’s doctrine is, because you need millions of dollars in “auditing” before you’re ready to learn the big, underlying teaching. The whole structure of Scientology reeks of dishonesty.
I don’t know about Europe in general but Germany sees Scientology not as a religion but as a commercial enterprise. I think it was officially banned in Greece or took off after some unpleasantness.
As to it being banned in Germany, nope its registered as a non-profit community in some places and in others its been forced to register its money making aspects as a business.
The main reason they’re going after the organization and not people is because they believe its harmful and fools people with the sole intent of making money. Going after a fraudulent organization for the purposes of protecting the community, its a lot like consumer protection. If the their policy is wrong or the people were acting on the orders of the organization its makes perfect sense to punish the group.
I don’t know why so many people think Scientology was banned in Germany. It is a common misconception. A couple of Scientologists got nailed for tax evasion , and some of the political parties have tried to keep them out (European political parties have a history of being infiltrated by anti-democratic liars and have gotten pretty adept at showing them the door.
The right to believe stupid things is protected by the German Constitution, just as it is in the U.S. Constitution; neither country has persecuted anyone for believing in Scientology (I don’t know about the Greek situation). The difference is that Germany has confronted people at the top of the organization for fraudulent business practices.
It’s funny - a friend of mine is always fretting about how mean the German government is being to the Scientologists. I always tell him they were much meaner to the Communist Party of Germany (KPD, not to be confused with the DKP), which they banned outright. The funny thing is, the same guy is always talking about how the Scientologist E-meter is a galvanic skin response meter combined with a tape recorder. Where did the tape recorder part come from? The TV show Millenium - in which a fictitious organization known as the Selfologists duels with Frank Black and his plucky sidekicks. So apparently Scientology is a rich source of misconceptions and urban legends.
In my grand old (at least a year old) tradition of adding a new urban legend to every batch I find on a particular topic, here goes:
AFAIK, the EU has yet to legislate as a body on the collective religious freedoms of it’s member states, although given time, I’m sure it’s a topic they’ll approach eventually.
casdave, I don’t think even Romano Prodi would be that stupid, let alone the rest of the EU. They know how unpopular they are without getting stuck into issues which would involve the religious politics of Ireland, Italy and Spain.
Ok, I get it. It is not as a religion that they have been persecuted but rather for their (illegal) business practices.
Hehe, I’d like to see the day when religions have to prove their claims like Pharmaceutical Companies have to prove theirs to the FDA… Hmmm… so you say Jesus Saves? Can you prove it? Unless you can prove it you are not allowed to make the claim or take money from your clients (parishioners).
Yes, I did hear Scientology was banned in several European countries including Germany and Spain but I guess maybe reports of that death were greatly exagerated
Spirituality is out of the normal realm of proof or evidence. I don’t see why any ethical religious group should have to prove anything. Any government authority judging the claims of a spiritual group would only lead to the degradation of rights of its citizens. How they act (legally or illegally) is a completely different story.
If you don’t like Jesus, Moses, Zoraster, or whoever that’s fine, I think you can be mature enough to accept your beliefs or non-beliefs without the government to give you their stamp of approval and mature enough to accept that fact that the world is full of people that believe things very differntly than you do.
Actually mattk, my last comment was meant with tongue in cheek, although given that the EU is considering the abolition of trial by jury as well as indefinite detention without trial (link here if you’re sceptical), it does make one wonder.
$cientology was thrown out of Greece for operating in secret - calling themselves one sort of facility, but really being a cult-recruiting facility. (Once again we see the Greeks way, way out in front of the rest of civilization.) They have serious credibility problems in other places in Europe - France, Austria, Denmark, Norway come to mind immediately - but they are still free to operate in the open … for now.
The Germans government suspects the cult for what it is (a money-grubbing fraud founded by one of Aleister Crowley’s old pals, which preys on the weak and has no ethics or morals), but the cult keeps cynically throwing the Nazi-persecution thing in Germany’s face, causing PR problems. It’s not at all a fair analogy, but the $cienos know it makes the Germans uncomfortable and brings them bad press which is why they keep grinding away at it. Still, $cienos are explicity banned from holding government jobs there etc. which is a good start IMHO.
All around the world, the cult tries VERY hard to keep a step or two in front of the law. When that doesn’t work out, they think nothing of spending millions in legal fees to fight even the pettiest civil or criminal complaints.
A few rebuttals:
HorseloverFat - $cientology is not an ethical religious group . <-period
sailor - their “business practices” (i.e fraud and tax evasion), yes, but also things like breaking & entering and evidence tampering and vandalism and witness harassment etc. etc. etc. Many other crimes (up to and including 1st-degree murder) have been alleged by cult observers. But much more formidable is the ever-growing body of testimony from ex-$cienos, who unilaterally swear what a messed-up and evil organization the whole thing is.
Boris B - is your friend a $cientologist? if not, what does he care … has he been listening to John Travolta and Kirstie Alley again? I think your friend needs to read up on the cult before he starts caring about whether THEY, of all outfits, are banned from operating anywhere. Funny legend, I hope it doesn’t get out.
And yes, the definitive website on $cientology remains http://www.xenu.net, aka Operation Clambake. There are many hours of reading linked from there, so be prepared.
Let me just note that juries only exist in countries whose legal systems derive from English common law. In countries whose legal systems derive from Roman law, there never were juries. So most of Europe never had juries.
Thanks all for the links, Now I understand the issue much better. What I do not understand now is how John Travolta, Tom Cruise and other celebrities support this outfit. Can someone illustrate me? They cannot be that stupid. Why do they believe it is legit?
Regarding the tangent matter brought up by android, I cannot see anything wrong with the proposed law. (maybe we should start another thread is we are going to discuss this) Anyway, one of the big items in the EU budget are subsidies to agriculture and there has been a great deal of fraud. Spain in particular, as one of the countries getting more subsidies, has had its share of scandals which seemed not to be investigated by the national authorities (probably involved in the scams). So the EU says they want to have judicial powers to prosecute and judge this type of crime and that is fine by me.
As has been pointed out, trial by jury is only a tradition in England and, after seeing how it works, I am not sure it is such a good idea. In Spain it has been introduced lately and, in the particular cases where it was used, the results are not good. One of the first cases involved a guy who killed two cops and was set free by the jury (the suspicion was they were threatened by the terrorists). IMHO it has been a mistake to introduce jury trials in a country where it is not traditional.
But getting back to the original question: if the EU is going to give you money, it should have the power to punish you if you defraud them. The US federal Government works the same way: you defraud the Feds and you go to federal Court.
No, my friend isn’t a Scientologist. He’s a concerned civil libertarian. He’s also a total goofball. He believes tons of urban legends; he especially loves the one about the dude in Arizona / New Mexico who stuck JATO rockets on his Impala and got himself adsorbed by a rock face. I actually thought the celebrities, as distinct from Scientology’s legalistic hired goons, were pretty reserved about it. Alley is apparently an exception, but I didn’t know anything about Travolta other than that he was a member. I haven’t really been paying attention, though.
What’s this? You hope my legend doesn’t get out? I’m crushed. Tryin ta spoil my fun, are ya? Seriously though, whenever I pen a legend like that, I’m always torn between sinister pleasure and guilty fears that anyone might actually read it. So please, teeming millions, never read anything I write, ever again.
Actors are just like any other group of people. A few smart ones and a whole lot of morons. Just because someone can act doesn’t make the any smarter than anyone else.
This is pure speculation, but I’d hazard a guess that actors are even more vulnerable to cults than other people. After all, you frequently spend time out of work or hit a low patch, it makes you doubt yourself and question your self-worth, and the cults are just sitting there waiting to scoop you up and make you feel better about yourself.
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What I do not understand now is how John Travolta, Tom Cruise and other celebrities support this outfit.
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For many years there have been floating allegations that Travolta first got involved in the cult because of their assertion that they will cure a person of homosexuality (the same has been said of Cruise, but not as much). This has always been only a rumor, mind you! Unsubstantiated. And, both of those guys currently have hottie starlets (and high-ranking-$cientologists) for wives …
One of the primary indoctrinations of the cult is to reveal every closeted skeleton, every scrap of dirty laundry, every embarassing secret to your “auditor”, who puts it all in a thick file - which then becomes the eternal property of the cult. Naturally it would be in one’s best interest to ensure that file is tucked away where nobody can see it. But, you guessed it: the cult has been known to “leak” such info on people who leave the cult.
As far as “HOW” they support the cult; well, they support it with massive amounts of money! The yearly membership fee, the classes, room & board for their personal “clergyman”, huge tithes etc. Plus the simple marquee value of their celebrity - as if a thing was made worthwhile solely on the basis of someone famous was into it! - and the fact that they get to do things that the rest of us don’t, like lobby the President (as Travolta did with Clinton in regards to the German Government’s suppressive behavior).
Jenna Elfman got into the cult through her hubbie Bodhi Elfman (son of Danny, not a $ci.).
Lisa-Marie Presley got into it through her mommah, 'Cilla, who dabbled in it.
Kirstie Alley was a nobody when she was first recruited in the late 70s by the “mission” in Wichita, KS.
Isaac Hayes, Chick Corea, Giovanni Ribisi, the “Bart Simpson’s voice” lady, Anne Archer, Greta Van Susteren, etc. - who knows … probably just got drawn into it the same way as most; the “personality test” and a few classes etc., that plus the massive perks alotted to celebs and celeb recruits at the cult’s “Celebrity Center”, a palatial facility located in Los Angeles and one of the cult’s major property holdings.
