Scotland's referendum on Independence 18 Sept 2014

Puh-lease, these lurid folk tales of historical rape and murder sound like a book with Fabio on the cover (and by that logic, nobody should be dealing with the Germans for the next thousand years either.) Scotland has been a partly British loyalist region since the beginning, and that sentiment absolutely dominates in many Scottish communities (they say that the Scots make up more than their share of volunteers in the British armed forces, for one thing). Many of those same Scots were among those opposing “Charles”.

You are completely wrong, crucible, yes. You’ve been reading some odd version of history and it’s quite embarrassing that you’re trying to teach the Scottish and English people on this thread a distorted version of their own history.

However, if you go into a Scottish pub and ask some drunk people if they hate the English conquerors, they’ll probably cheer in agreement without thinking about the word conqueror. They really weren’t conquered in any sense of the word.

There is hatred in a non-serious sporting rivalry way, and there is some hatred due to the current govt, but there isn’t any based on 300-year-old history.

So, here you presume to not only ‘know’ of Scottish resentment of old ‘English’ behaviours (it would be a gross stretch to count the Duke of Cumberland as ‘English’ considering his parents were both German and ruled The United Kingdom, not just England, but hey, it suits your purposes), you also seem to ‘know’ what the English “think of the HIghlander or Clansman*.” (which includes me, so thanks for filling in for my own opinions).

There seems to be only one person in this thread who has a problem with the English, and he isn’t Scottish.

*Nice bit of romantic Braveheartiism in the language there, well done.

Almost all of the current dislike of things English are due to Thatcher. Where a lot of people in Scotland go wrong is that they assume that the whole of England leans right, whereas in reality there are large areas, especially in Northern England, that are politically very similar to large areas of Scotland.

It has bog all to do with things that happened centuries ago. You will meet the odd person that seems to be genuinely angered by the Acts of Union, but you are far more likely to find someone who spits on the ground and the slightest mention of the Poll Tax.

As I said, most of the Scots who opposed being ruled by Englishmen (and Germans) got outta Dodge as soon as they could.

I am very sure there are 10X at least people in the world today who call themselves of Scottish heritage than there are Scots of any kind left in Scotland, whether of English or Scot heritage.

Most of them would not want to be linked so closely to England, IMHO., as are the Scots of today. In fact, I see that in 2009, over 6 million people in the US said they had ‘only’ Scot ancestry. Another 27 million said they had ‘some’ Scot heritage.

Don’t forget obscure beers.

Nuh-uh! I know what really happened - I saw “Braveheart!” :smiley:

I remember people grumbling that Trainspotting should have been released with subtitles in the U.S.

How does he do with Groundskeeper Willie?

So, right. The Scots who actually were born here and live here are not actually Scots, while those who live in the USA and elsewhere and have never set foot in the country are the “real” Scots.

I mean, I’m sure you don’t mean to offend us, but can you hear how absurd that sounds?

Absolutely.

No, because there was no way a successful '45 ends in anything other than Charles Stuart on the English throne as well. Charlie would never have “settled” for an independent Scotland - he wanted the whole enchilada. Which is why his campaign was almost certainly doomed from the start, something of which his ( few ) high government French backers were well aware of. As a pawn he was a potentially useful distraction from the action on the continent in the wake of Fontenoy. But however hopeful Charles may have been, not many other non-romantics shared his optimism.

I’m wondering - how do they say “enchilada” in Scotland?

It sounds a lot like “enchilada”. :smiley:

Nonsense. According to my vast knowledge of Scottish lore accumulated from countless TV sitcoms, the only things that Scots eat are sheep stomachs and boiled oats. So obviously “enchilada” is pronounced “haggis” ;).

Well, in Scotland an “enchilada” is haggis wrapped in a tattie scone.

Well yes - I didn’t say as much in my post but I do agree with you. If he’d won, the Union may have been dissolved but he would have been absolute ruler of both kingdoms - and would still be primarily concerned with England.

It’s hard to know how to even begin here.

Are you attempting to assert that people of Scots descent in the non-Scotland parts of the world are more Scottish or something? :dubious:

Well, since you put it that way…I suppose it is very true that the Scot population of 1746 and the Scot population of 2014 are quite different in many ways. Yes, it does start to make sense that since the English took over everything after 1746 and never relinquished control for a minute, most Scots would as soon think of themselves as being as British and the East Ender or Liverpudlian. I think you are likely right to assume that whatever differences exist today that inspire a call for independence, the differences and incentive are political and not cultural/national/‘racial’ or any of those things that made the average mid 18th century Scot differ from the equivalent Englishman or Welshman or Irishman.

The shifting alliances of European’s over the centuries simply illustrates that John Q. Public and the average Englishman, German, Russian, and Frenchman are the ones who will do the fighting and dying, after which, if they are lucky, they will get a stone. The Dukes and Kings and Czars and Kaisers and Cardinals, Popes and Archbishops and Lords and Viscounts will not miss any meals nor forget where they put the key to the winecellar.

I just…don’t know where to start. I mean, your second paragraph suggests a type of populism that has little to do with the present referendum. There will always be prominent, powerful people who get others to do their dirty work. That won’t change in an independent Scotland.

But, well, I don’t think (and more knowledgeable people may correct me here) that the majority of Scots even supported the Jacobites in the '45. I think most folk, even at the time, saw them as a bunch of treasonous yahoos and wished they would fuck off and stop causing needless trouble.

In the end, though, this is a question that will be decided by those of us who live here now, and we won’t be overly swayed by the opinions of people who consider us to be second-class Scots simply because we’re actually Scottish.

Not to mention, it’s so “1990s” to pretend to be a proud rebel Highlander. These days you get a lot more hipster points by pretending to be a proud rebel Welshman or Native American Indian. :stuck_out_tongue:

Ah, “The Highlander.” Another great educational movie about Scottish history.