From The Nation:
That long quote aside, which I read, I would like to know why public sector union employees should get better wages and retirement than I do.
They shouldn’t. You should have a strong union that gets you as good a wage/pension package as public sector employees (or good a deal as you imagine they get).
I realize this is an oldish post at this point, but are you kidding me with this? People dump trash absolutely everywhere in this state, and they are as bold as goddamned brass about it – strangers have sometimes dumped it in our front yard while we’ve been working with cattle in plain view of the road. You’re trying to paint people who don’t support Walker as cowards because some person dumped a trash bag near some signs on a rural road? Really? Don’t you think you’re reaching just a bit far for that one?
Except nothing he said was reasonable. Hating someone’s tactics shouldn’t matter if you don’t also hate their position.
What he did say that has merit is entirely based on irrationality. Voters are not rational people–they don’t vote for their best interests or even necessarily what the believe in. That’s where the Democrats fail. They are always more concerned with doing what is right, when image is vital.
Unfortunately, most Republicans are concerned with the opposite.
I seriously bet that, if you did an actual poll, you would not find even now that the majority Wisconsinites actually agree with Walker’s policies.
And that’s where advertising comes in. It doesn’t convince people who know the issues. It gives people a way to rationalize their feelings. They feel insulted by Democrats, so all they need is an excuse to agree with Walker, and that’s what the ads provided.
It honestly sucks that something as treasonous as trying to destroy unions doesn’t matter more to people. It’s only when the company stores start up again that people would care out of morality, and not just look after their own interest.
…
You got teabagged. Wash your face.
Why do you keep bringing up striking public union workers in relationship to public unions in Wisconsin? Members of public unions in Wisconsin aren’t allowed to strike. It’s totally irrelevant to the point you’re trying to make about what Walker has done in Wisconsin, because striking public unions was never a threat – members can be fired for not showing up to work, because it’s an undocumented absence, not an organized strike. I mean, people try to stage sick-ins, but that never works.
Bingo. The problem is not that public union members have things that private sector workers don’t – it’s that private sector workers don’t have access to the same resources that public union members do when it comes to establishing working conditions and compensation. Or that public union members had at one point in Wisconsin.
The answer to that isn’t to take away the things that public employees have. The answer is to strive to attain the same things for yourself as a private sector employee.
I understand what you’re saying, and there’s some merit to it. Certainly the Democratic positions on issues was and is better than the Republicans, IMO. Perhaps that means Dems were thinking about doing the right things, but that doesn’t equate to doing them. Perhaps if they had been in power, they would have, but as a minority that could be outvoted at every turn, they acted like spoiled children who were playing a game and losing badly. They ran away and hid to try stopping the game. They decided that Walker somehow cheated and they wanted to start the game over with the recall. The Dems were resorting to tricks and stunts. I think it just struck a lot of people as unfair.
The Dems lost the moral high ground to the Republicans, which seems hardly even possible, but… I don’t know how else to say it. Maybe you can restate it better than I. The election became not about policy but about fair play. And frankly, that is a legitimate election issue, and the Dems seem to have forgotten that or never even thought about it.
Something that fooled me and lots of other people into believing the discontent against Walker was so high, was the number of signatures on the the recall petitions. I should have realized way back then that most people will sign almost any petition put in front of them for at least a couple of reasons. First, no matter what they think of the idea, it’s difficult and probably unpleasant for many people to argue and debate against it face to face with strangers on the street. Second, whether or not you support an idea, it always seems “fair” to sign something to allow a vote on it. I’ve signed petitions myself for that reason – not knowing much, thinking it doesn’t sound real smart, but shit yes, let folks vote on it.
That’s one of the things that had people so up in arms, so what exactly was the necessity for such a bill if these things were never happening? I don’t doubt that perhaps State employees didn’t have a specific right to strike, but when you can’t even fire them for selling drugs and watching pornography at a school, I’m not sure you can effectively hope to fire them for not showing up to work.
The majority of Citizen’s United money is coming through Super PACS and not donated directly to the campaign.
Why do you think only a strong union can get good pay and benefits? In many States, public employee unions have not been allowed to collectively bargain for decades. Look at West Virginia, which hasn’t allowed public employee collective bargaining since the 1970s. They have a defined benefits pension plan that lets you retire at age 55, and you only pay in 4.5% of salary. It has full coverage healthcare that for individuals have premiums ranging from 14-68 a month (it scales based on income.)
They get 18 sick days (which can be banked without any limitation), up to 24 vacation days, and 12 holidays (14 in an election year with a primary/general election.)
Public sector employees by and large do not need a strong union to get great benefits and pay. The idea that public sector unions are why public sector employees have great benefits and pay is a little facetious. Public sector employee pensions started to come about as early as the 1920s (and earlier if you count various veteran pensions schemes that have been implemented over the years.)
Up until 1960 public sector unions were nothing like they are today, and even the most liberal, labor friendly U.S. Presidents opposed their existence. If you look at the Federal government, they have probably better pay and benefits than most any State government, and most of the Federal workforce is not unionized.
What do you mean, born to a professional??
Your parents had jobs and got paid, right? So they were professionals. Real, authentic hispanics stay on welfare.
Or something.
Well, which is it? Walker and his ilk have been claiming that public employee unions have been destroying state budgets with the power and outrageous demands, and you say the unions aren’t even needed as part of the giveaway. If they are so marginal, why did he so much time and energy into undermining them?
Heh. Want some salt with those words that you’re eating?
Well, contrary to the beliefs of some, I’m not an idiot.
You would seriously lose.
Treasonous?
Heh… Heh heh heh heh …
“Treasonous?”
I want to elect you King of the Liberals. Your wise guidance is precisely what they need.
So the asshole bought himself an election. It’ll be scant comfort when he’s indicted.
Go ahead and dance in the endzone, o tightie righties. I won’t tell you you’re still at the 30 yard line. When you outspend your opponent 7:1 you can buy a lot of the low-information voters. You know, the kind that think Fox carries news. We find out that Republicans turn out in recall elections just as they do in off-year elections and millage elections. Democrats show up in presidential elections. Romney isn’t going to outspend Obama by 7:1. In the long term, the demographics favor Democrats. The US is getting less white and less homophobic as time goes on. When your party does everything in its power to alienate blacks, Hispanics, gays, and women, the odds of its long term survival are not good.