Scottish Dopers! Know your Scotland history?

In My Humble Opinion
1

I’m doing family history research and have finally managed to narrow down the place from whence my ancestors came: Stirling, Scotland.

So, if any Scottish Dopers wouldn’t mind entertaining my ignorant questions, I have a few. (Or anyone else who has lived in Scotland or knows the area I’m asking about, feel free to jump in.)

First, if you or your relatives were from Stirling – we’re talking mid-18th century – does that mean they were Highlanders?

Some relatives were married at St. Ninian’s in Stirling – but they were from Kippen. Is there a St. Ninian’s in Kippen, or would these people – in 1735 – have traveled the 4 miles to Stirling for their wedding? Is there still such a church, and if it exists today, is it a Presbyterian church? The research I’ve done so far indicated that it was a Catholic church at one time – which doesn’t make sense to me since every single ancestor for the next hundred years claimed him/herself as a Presbyterian.

If I were to travel to Stirling to do more research, what would be the best way to travel to Kippen and Gargunnock? I have no intention of doing anything touristy – if I come to Scotland it will be for geneology research.

I’m sure I’ll have more questions, but let’s see if this thread tanks first!

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Not a Scot or of Scottish descent, but interested enough in Scotiana to be able to provide a few answers.

Stirling is on (or very near) the Leith River just about 10 miles from where it empties into the head of the Firth of Forth, 27 miles from Glasgow and 35 Edinburgh and just a bit north of the line connecting them. By my standards that’s emphatically Lowlands.

Like all Western European countries, Scotland’s national religion before the Reformation was Catholic, and most of the historic churches were originally Catholic. The Scottish Reformation is even more complex than the English, but suffice it to say that the country went through a short period when the national religion was Anglican, enforced by the Stuarts after they became kings of both countries, before settling into Presbyterianism – and there remained Catholics throughout this time. Even today there is a small but tenuous Anglican Church of Scotland, as opposed to the Church of Scotland and the former Free Church of Scotland, both Presbyterian but the latter staunch conservative Calvinists. St. Ninian’s may have been built prior to the Reformation. And by no means is the whole country Presbyterian.

Stirling was at one time the name of a county (now “Central”) as well as a city, so be cautious with references that simply say “from Stirling” – the county may be meant, much as my saying that “I was born in New York” does not mean that I’m from the Big Apple, but rather from a little city 300 miles from NYC but in that state. “Stirling” remains the name of a district within the county; here’s the History page from the District Council’s website.

Stirling and Kippen would be an easy drive from Glasgow or Edinburgh, which have international airports. Road, Rail, and Bus Routes to Stirling. Here’s a tourism route to Kippen from Stirling – apparently Gargunnock is halfway between.

Here’s what I found on St. Ninian’s using Google. You don’t want this place, which only dates from the 1930s. More than you ever wanted to know about St. Ninian the man.

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Thanks, Poly that was very helpful. Maybe you could summarize – in very vague terms – what you know about the Scottish reformation. I’m looking specifically for what was going on in the Stirling area, with respect to religion, politics, and history in general, in the mid-1700s. (Yeah, like that ought to garner a rash of responses!)

To anyone else bothering to check out this thread: Maybe I should share my end goal, in terms of the questions I’m asking. Might help focus the answers a bit.

I know that the parents of the ancestor who immigrated here were married at St. Ninian’s in Kippen. His mother’s parents were from Gargunnock. The ancestor in question was born in 1741 – four years prior to the Battle of Culloden. I’m trying to deduce, based on the history of the area at that time, what the reasons could have been for my ancestors to get out of dodge, so to speak.

So far, I figure it could be one of several things, and most likely a combination of reasons which could be:
• Religious persecution – My ancestors were Presbys living in a Catholic world. Or vice versa. Or something along those lines.
• Political – After Bonnie Prince Charlie was defeated, my ancestors were having none of that, “We can make more money off sheep than you. Your tartan is banned, your clan culture is banned. Pay us (more) rent and stop being so damned Scottish!” I’ve read that many Scots left on principle for those reasons alone. “Screw you! We’ve worked this land for centuries! It’s ours! Piss off!”
• Economic – While my ancester in question is listed as a stonemason, we believe he emigrated at a young age, maybe around 10 or in the early teen years. There were four other brothers, though. Perhaps Daddy ran out of money, momma died, or for some economic reason, they put their sons on a ship to the New World. Maybe my ancestor and his brothers went as indentured servants to become stonemasons in the New World. Maybe there was a long-standing tradition in the family of stonemasonry (the photos I’ve seen of the area look pretty rugged. I bet there’s lots of rock to quarry 'round those parts.)

I haven’t been able to find anything of historical significance to indicate something like, “well there was a famine between 1750-1762 and that’s when Stirling emptied out.”

So my questions to any of you in the know – what can you tell me about the mid-18th Century history of Stirling? Political hot spot? Religious hot spot? No work for skilled masons?

Turns out, it seems there are several St. Ninians all over the place. I’m so sure, I’m looking for information about a guy with a name that’s the equivalent of John Doe in an area where few records are kept. Egad. Story of geneologists everywhere.

Thanks to anyone who bothers to respond to this thread!

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I have only a general understanding of Scottish history I’m afraid but can confirm your people would not have been regarded as Highlanders and would not have belonged to a clan in any political sense (as the Highlanders did).

They are unlikely to have worn tartan either, which again was a Highlander thing until Queen Victoria made it all madly popular for anyone who could jump on the bandwaggon.

Sterling is simply on the wrong side of Scotland and too far south for all that. BTW don’t fall into the trap of it being simple English oppression versus hero Highlanders. Bullshit - the real enemies of the Highlanders were the Scottish lowlanders, not for nothing was their relationship christened “the great hatred”! Since of course history has been busily rewritten…

Religious problems are a possible reason but unlikely in Scotland I would have thought, where the Catholic population had a reasonably OK time, compared to England anyway IIRC.

I would wager 20/1 it was economic, especially if they had a well paid skilled trade like being a stonemason and saw an opportunity.

Regret I cannot help you more with the detailed socio-economic history of Sterling in the mid eighteenth century! If a SD who can pops out of the woodwork we will salute him/her.

Good luck to you. You are going to need it I suspect.

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Not too sure about the remark about the river Leith further up; Stirling used to be the lowest bridging point on the River Forth although there are now more modern bridges further down…
Anyway, this site might interest you: www.electricscotland.com/history/stirlingshire/

Trans-Atlantic flights usually come in to Glasgow airport rather than Edinburgh, or you might have to travel up from London by shuttle. There’s a pretty good train service from Glasgow - it takes less than 1/2 hour.

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Hey - cool post!

Funny to read, because I attended Stirling University during my Junior Year Abroad while at the University of California.

I can’t comment on the historical stuff, but can tell you that Stirling is wonderful community as of about 20 years ago. It was going through a lot of development, such as working hard to get corporations to locate high-tech manufacturing close by, so some locals complained of losing a bit of local flavor, but to me, it was quite charming.

Stirling Uni is about 3,000 students big and in a gorgeous setting. And nothing like a pub crawl through the nearby village of Bridge of Allen for a good time.

Ancestors on my mom’s side were from Kelso, near the borders, so it was fun to go to Scotland and experience that.

Best of luck on your search!

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I was afraid we might be descended from the hated lowlanders… So much for knowing which tartan to buy at the Celtic festivals! LOL. I did understand that the real enemy was more lowlander than British – for the obvious reasons. If Scotland couldn’t be united, how were they ever going to be independent. I was glad to hear that they FINALLY gained independence a couple years ago. That said, I bet there’s still strife between highlanders and lowlanders…

Emigrating for economic reasons feels right to me. I think now I’m going to start researching the indentured servant angle. I wonder if any one kept records on who was indentured to who for what and for how long…

::scurries off to do more searching::

Thanks to all who have had actual relevant input!

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You may want to check your facts on that one. Scotland has devolved regional government, not independence.

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My Grandmother was a Caldwell. I believe that was a Scot name. That is the total of my knowledge of my Scottish heritage. She spent most of her life in Ohio.

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I suspect there’s some confusion here. Stirling, St. Ninian’s, Kippen and Gurgunnock were all separate parishes, albeit in the same immediate area. In that period Scottish parish churches were usually just referred to by the placename, mainly because the Church of Scotland had rejected the idea of churches being dedicated to particular saints. St. Ninian’s may seem the exception, but that’s because the village had been named after the church. So, what this means is that if you have evidence of a marriage at ‘St. Ninian’s’, it almost certainly means that it took place in St. Ninian’s parish church.

In theory and usually in practice, one of the parties to a marriage had to be resident in the parish where it took place. This means that the bride or the groom was probably living in St. Ninian’s. This however need not mean that they had never lived in Stirling, Kippen or Gurgunnock. People did move around. You shouldn’t assume that individuals spent their entire lives in the same parish. In this case, the distances involved are very small.

For a sense of the area, check out this site, which reprints the Stirlingshire entries from the most famous of all nineteenth-century topographical accounts of Scotland. The map unfortunately seems to be the best one I can find showing the parish boundaries.

Only the tower of St. Ninian’s parish church survives, for reasons which are explained here. The town was held briefly by the Jacobites in 1746, but that doesn’t mean that they had much support in the town. As others have said, Stirling is not in the Highlands. More importantly, it was an area where Presbyterianism was strong, so the local inhabitants were not naturally sympathetic to the idea of a Catholic Pretender.

As to why your ancestors emigrated, who knows? If they were Presbysterians, they wouldn’t have been fleeing persecution, nor are they likely to have been going into political exile in the wake of the '45. Unless you have specific reasons to think otherwise, it is probably best to assume that they simply thought that their economic prospects were better elsewhere.

Oddly enough, the brother of one of my ancestors was a stonemason who moved to Stirling (from Ayrshire) in the nineteenth century and became the town’s leading monumental sculptor.

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Thanks, APB, that helps clear up a lot for me.

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Oh. I thought forming a Scottish Parliament meant that Scots get to govern themselves now. Evidently, I misunderstood the meaning of stuff like this
I remember reading a lot about the formation of the Scottish Parliament and how Scotland got their Stone of Destiny back and all that… Evidently, I do not understand the system of government in the UK.

My bad.

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No problem. Most Britons wouldn’t understand it either (myself included, if we get into the details).

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In which case you should certainly also plan to spend time in Edinburgh. For, unlike in England, all the historic records from different parishes are centralised. By poking around on the Register Office’s website, you can even probably find out right away the sort of records that will have survived from these particular parishes.

And Edinburgh’s unmissable anyway.