This thread is the first time in my life I’ve encountered the term vertical license. Where’d that term come from?
I’m guessing it’s because they don’t want to talk about the difference between ‘portrait’ and ‘landscape’ licenses. A normal license would be aligned with picture on one side, and then the vital stats (name, age, address, and number), a vertical license would have the picture at either the top or the bottom of the card, with the vital stats in the free space, either above or below the picture. So, instead of having all the data aligned in a series of two horizontal blocks, it’s arranged in a series of vertical blocks.
Obviously as a means of quickly differentiating the over-21 license from the under-21 license.
A link is worth a thousand words.
Some states started running licenses for anyone under 21 to be in portrait vs. landscape. That makes it easier for those carding to know that they need to check their math before letting the cleavage girl in.
Ah, but there is always the business man looking to make a buck on the “untapped” market. All it takes is one. Twenty stores can be strict on the under 27 policy, but all it takes is that one out of the way place with the 87 year old blind man as the clerk, and there is where to buy your smokes.
Or just have your 18 year old buddy buy your smokes, and have your 21 year old buddy buy your beer. It worked for me when I was younger.
I’m confused about how you think these laws “are working”. Did I miss a press release where no more underage kids are drinking and smoking anymore? 
Or a person could take today’s date - 21 years and compare it to the birthdate on the card. But most states don’t teach basic math skills in school anymore…
I see signs by a lot of cash registers to help the cashiers. They say if the birth data on the license is after today’s date in 1986. Then they are over 21. I would guess that they change these once a year.
I’m still trying to wrap my mind around this whole “appears” 25 standard. How is that not completely subjective?
I could imagine, say, requiring the carding of everyone who is under 25 or 30, saying that by the time someone reaches 25 or 30, society will assume that they “appear” to be at least 18. But what possible standard is there for deciding whether or not someone appears a certain age? If you fail to card someone who is 24, could you successfully argue in your defense that they appeared to be over 25?
As an old fogey, I’m not terribly sure I could distinguish between 21-30 year olds. They all look mighty young to me! More likely, my judgments would depend mainly on their clothing, grooming, carriage, etc. What, in your opinions, are the signs that make someone “appear” 25?
Of course, then you run into the same old problem of, how the hell do you tell if they’re 25 until you card them?
Granted, it is subjective to say ‘appears’, but it gives enough leeway that odds are no one will miss an 18-year-old who looks over their age, unless they have an older brother that works in the makeup department of the local theatre.
Originally posted by Dinsdale:
I can’t tell the difference between teenagers and adults----I bought a case of champagne a couple of weeks ago and I would have bet the clerk who sold it wasn’t a day over sixteen. I would fail miserably as a cashier in todays world.
Back when I was a young fogey, I couldn’t tell a person’s age with much clarity, and while it’s gotten better as I’ve learned, it’s not a skill I’d care to wager much on.
To me, the things that would signify whether someone were 25 or older (most of these are male tells, for women I confess to being screwed from the get-go):
Comfortably wearing a coat and tie, rather than being obviously self-conscious about it.
Laugh lines around the eyes, or at the corners of the mouth.
Grey hairs in the hair at the temple. (Even having known someone who went salt and pepper in HS, this still will up my personal estimate of someone’s age by at least five years.)
I used to be able to add years to my estimate for visible tattoos, nowadays it seems that is more likely to be a trait for younger people rather than older ones.
The use of reading glasses.
Most importantly, a sense of boredom with the whole age-check thing. The majority of the people who get nervous, pissed or worried when I was a clerk, and was considering asking for ID were those who were trying to sneak smokes. Those who projected an air of utter indifference, ennui, or resignation were less likely for me to card even if I had doubts about their calendar age.
Based on my experience in working at a Beer Store (in a jurisdiction where the drinking age was 19), factors that I would watch for included:
– Carriage and confidence. Does the person carry him/herself like he/she has done this many times before? Does the person look nervous?
– Dress. A T-shirt featuring a high school name (for example, “Property of Central High Football”) or a band currently popular with kids doesn’t do it. Work overalls, a uniform with patches saying the wearer works at “Jake’s Autobody” and his name is “Bill,” clothes that tell me the guy has just come from playing golf or a workout at the gym, or a jacket and tie will be fine. Women were tricky, but there was definitely a difference between the shy, nervous girl in T-shirt and jeans and the confident woman who was dressed and made up for some sort of work.
– Speech. When I ask, “How ya doing today?” responding with short mumbled replies won’t do it. Saying “Fine thanks, and you?” or something similar will do it. Be clear, joke with me, look me in the eye–you’re probably OK. Avoid me (or worse, ignore me) and you’re likely not. This gets back to “carriage and confidence.”
– Being in a hurry. We’re all in a hurry at times, but does this person appear to be in a hurry because he or she wants to get to the bank or the supermarket before it closes? Or because they just want this transaction to be over and done with so they can get and out of here, preferably with a case of beer?
– Children. A man or woman with children in tow will generally be fine. But watch how the kids interact with the adult; this can tell you a lot.
– Car. Obviously, this can’t be done at all stores, but at our store, we had a good view of the parking lot. Somebody driving in and parking their own car was generally a better bet than a car that had a few passengers in it, and that pulled up, dropped one off, and went to the far end of the parking lot to wait.
– Time of day. Tricky, but kids looking to get a case of beer often don’t purchase it ahead of time–they get it on their way to where they’re going to drink it. So while we might not be on guard at noon, we were always careful in the early evenings, before the teen parties without parents around got going.
– Purchase. What are they buying? The popular beer that’s heavily marketed to the barely-legal crowd? Or the microbrew that’s an acquired taste for the experienced beer drinker? Or anything over 5% ABV? Because some young people want to get drunk fast, any purchase of strong beer raised eyebrows.
– Presentation of funds. Does the person have a wallet and credit cards, as any adult would? Or am I offered a crumpled bill pulled from a pocket?
Note that these are in addition to the factors that OtakuLoki stated. It is also important to note that no one of these was any more important than the others–they were all considered and balanced fairly equally. But in all my time at the Beer Store, and using all these among other factors, as well as carding when necessary, I never made a sale to a minor. Good thing too; fines in our jurisdiction for doing so were, IIRC, $10,000 per occurrence. I sure couldn’t afford that on what I was being paid!
How do you know that you never made a sale to a minor? At best you can say you never got caught making a sale to a minor. I had 19 year old friends with beards that looked 25 they bought beer all the time with no problem. I had other friends that looked older and had really good fake IDs. I am believe you were reasonable diligent did a good job obeying the spirit if not letter of the law, but to say in all you thousands of transactions that not one slipped through is silly.
Incorrect. Statutory rape (or whatever it is referred to in various jurisdictions) is a strict liability offense. If the person is under the age of consent there, and no Romeo and Juliet exceptions apply, it’s a crime. Even if the person looks 40. Even if they show you fake ID. Now there may well be situations where the DA won’t press charges given those factors, but you don’t get to show pictures to the jury and ask them how old they thought the person was.
Yeah, I never got carded when I was 18/19 and had my kids in tow. However, at age 41, I got carded buying lighters at a store 2 months ago. Lighters! I just laughed, like I do when I get carded buying beer at the grocery store. I still get carded about 3 times a year.
Please tell me that that’s what the company, not the clerk, get’s fined! :eek:
Amusingly, I just got carded with my Mom in tow. I was buying a Christmas present, so we were paying separately.
Because if there was any doubt in my mind at all–any doubt–I carded them. Hell, I carded 40-year-olds if I felt I needed to. That removed all doubt, and I then logged the challenge, as per store policy. These logs provided evidence that I never made a sale to a minor.
That’s for the clerk. I believe it was more for the company.
So your defense is that your intuition is perfect and you could see through any fake ID?
Sure, why not? I saw enough of them. I knew the factors to look for and the questions to ask. I had attended courses on which IDs were acceptable and which were not; and how to spot fakes. I had a reputation as a very careful clerk who had never made a sale to a minor (according to a number of higher-ups), and that reputation put me in demand in a number of stores. Hell, I had that reputation with some members of the public; kids would walk in, see me on the cash, and turn around and walk out. So yeah, I’ll say I never made an underaged sale.