I find the whole idea of carding people who ‘look’ a certain age kind of laughable. I mean, sure, there’s a point at which most people start to look older than teenagers, but there are always zillions of outliers. When I was working in a convenience store (as a 15 year old, I was welcome sell cigarettes to other people, provided I could reliably ascertain that they were over 19), I was once faced with a customer who, just by looking at the person, I couldn’t determine if that person was a woman, possibly as old as 30 (which, to my 15 year old self was frigging ancient), or a boy younger than me. Carded her and determined she was 29 and sold her the cigarettes, but I’m still not entirely certain it wasn’t a 12 year old boy with his mother’s wallet, especially with the baseball uniform on.
I can’t remember where but I recently noticed a “We Card Everyone” sign in a store. Might have been Target.
But there is a certain “knowingly” element to most laws. I can’t murder someone. You and I both know what that means.
But I can’t sell cigarettes to someone under 18. People don’t have age stamps on their forehead. Maybe he looks 20 to me, and looks 16 to someone else.
I would agree that if a cashier sold smokes to someone that he/she KNEW was underage, then that should be punished. But forcing a business to enact policies, check IDs, know what fake IDs look like, etc. is an intrusion.
If the state wants kids to not have cigarettes, then they should enforce that, not pass off their obligation on the local convenience store, and certainly not the clerk making 8 bucks an hour.
Children can’t enter into most sorts of contracts, either.
Hey, wait a minute…
“Your honor, I did take money from the twelve year old in exchange for that pack of cigarettes. However, since a minor cannot enter into a contract, the contractual purchase of retail goods is null and void.” (Jedi hand-wave) “Therefore, by the law I didn’t sell those cigarettes to that minor.”
I’m not saying that the employee should ignore the law. What the employee decides to do or not do is her business, based on many factors. I’m talking about the over-zealous enforcement of a law by management or the government — like giving a ticket to everyone who drives 1MPH over the limit. A law which, unlike a law prohibiting murder, isn’t going to make much difference if violated in a “minor” sense (no pun intended). That is, I find it difficult to argue that it is a serious, horrible, unforgivable moral or legal wrong to sell a bottle to someone a day before their 18th birthday when it is peachy-keen the following day. It simply shouldn’t matter that much.
That said, I think a clerk should be allowed to make a reasonable judgement, and unless you can establish a clear pattern of too-frequent sales to the underage, it’s not something the authorities should get all upset about if one sale is make by mistake.
Who is forcing 12 yr olds to smoke cigarettes? No one.
Pedophiles often sweet-talk 12-year olds into sex, they don’t always hold them down and force them. We call it rape because a 12 year old has no real ability to understand and defend themselves against the psychological manipulation of adults.
In the same way, cigarette companies or misguided friends sweettalk 12 year olds into smoking. We shouldn’t let them, because a 12 year old has no real ability to understand and defend themselves against the psychological manipulation of adults.
Jesus H Christ on a cracker, now I’ve heard everything! Selling cigarettes to minors = rape?
Not at all. But consent = consent. If you aren’t mentally developed enough to consent to sex, why are you mentally developed enough to consent to something with long-term health consequences?
Once again, no one is forcing 12 yr olds (or anybody else, for that matter) to smoke. This is rape, how?
Not equating severity. Only taking your point to it’s logical end. We agree that a 12 year old is not capable of consenting to sex due to a lack of understanding of various consequences correct?
Thusly, are you asserting that a 12 year old can have enough understanding of the long term consequences of their decision to make a decision regarding smoking?
I don’t remember if anyone has said this yet or not but showing my driver’s license is not an inconvenience to me. I don’t now what kind of go go go lives everyone else is leading so I can only speak for myself.
As someone who buys cigarettes and alcohol at an alarming rate, I have learned that if I am not at my corner bodega, I have my ID out ahead of time and just put it there with my order. I turn 24 this month but I could easily be 18, which is the age most strangers guess of me. My sister is 33 but could easily be 21. I probably have a long life of being carded ahead of me.
Are we really talking about pornography that depicts child prostitutes associated with the nazi party being forcibly raped? First of all, is the Department of Homeland Security aware of these baby nazi hookers? Only at the dope could you over-philosophize about buying a pack of cigarettes. The ID is right there in your wallet, just reach into your pants or purse, open the wallet and pry it out. If you’re like me you have this really nifty piece of clear plastic over it and you don’t even have to pry it out!!! And if you behave, the person carding you may remember and won’t do it in the near future.
Well clearly you just aren’t right minded enough to understand all of the subtle nuances that go into such things. Maybe when you are older…
I am asserting no such thing. What does carding 25 yr olds have to do with 12 yr olds smoking, though?
Ok, I’ll ask one more time: How is a clerk supposed to know someone is actually 25 unless they show some sort of proof of that fact? It’s a very simple question; you continue to pose the quoted query with the implication that there’s some simple way to avoid carding 25-year-olds. So, what is it?
With the increasing amount of gray in my beard, it’s been a while since store clerks have thought that I was under whatever age they are required to think I am in order to require that I prove it. But if they do, my ID is in my wallet…the same wallet that I already have in my hand in order to pay for my purchase. So how much more difficult is it to show them my ID? I’ve never felt that my constitutional rights were being violated by being asked by someone to prove that I meet a government-mandated requirement to make a purchase.
That’s easy. Don’t force anyone to show government issued ID to engage in simple trade.
Now that you’ve explained how NOT to do it, how SHOULD it be done?
No one is forced. Don’t want to show ID? Then you don’t need that pack of smokes.
You said earlier that you would eliminate the need for ID checks by removing age requirements entirely. That could lead to such things as a twelve year old smoking.
Now, to restate. You have said that a twelve year old does not have the ability to make a proper decision regarding sex. Does that same twelve year old have the ability to make the proper decision regarding smoking?