Vote early, vote often. Not being on the record is de facto scummy, IMHO. You can always unvote later.
Okay then. For this and for his random voting and not really defending his actions except for accusing those who vote for him of being anti town for no real reason, vote peeker
Are those who are against Lysing Spawn Summer 1 acting in an anti-town manner or a pro-town manner, with different perspectives on the game? I don’t think that answer is as clear as anyone wants.
I will make no vote or unvote in this post, just to be clear.
However, and it might shock some people that I say this: I could be wrong.
On the stance of voting Spawn each and every Summer, even if it is seven minutes into it. [As if timing has any relevance on how Scummy Spawn are.] So many people have argued the best way they know how. I offered the best way I could, given my short Mafia experience. I remain firmly in the camp that if it looks like Scum, votes like scum, and is scum alligned, it is scum. But there is something else that I think allows for conversation, at least, on not voting Spawn.
There are a few voices who are seemingly placed as being less than town. I wish to speak to all of those players posts, not ones in particular. I believe I will be touching on issues Storyteller has brough up, and I might also touch on others.
The Spawn vote remains random. I interpret that as being, the Spawn are with out intelligence. I believe the word used was “coordination” or organization.
Early on in the game, it is more likely that the Spawn vote will be spread out. There are more choices, more people to vote. Given that this is a Mafia game, there will be less places for votes come next Summer, and the Summer after that, etc.
A Random vote, on 21 or so people is less of a threat to anyone person, than A random vote, on 11 or so people. But this does not mean we can all stop voting Spawn. But, by the time we get to 11 people, all the spawn (9-10 or so) kept alive might begin to become a force to be reckoned with.*
Yes, I recognize that this appears to go against my Random is Random statement. However, I would much rather have a game with 1 Spawn on Winter 10 than 9 Spawn on Winter 10. There is the OMG there is a lot of pro-scum reaction. And perhaps, the more important and implied reaction that more votes among a reduced number will hit more Pondies*.
Once we have information on players we can stop voting spawn. The only way we can afford to NOT vote spawn, is by voting spawn each Summer until we get there.
If we do not vote Spawn untill then, when we get to a point where we might need to not vote Spawn, the reduced number of Pondies [Pondies will die, it’s Mafia] will prove to be a perfect storm for them.
And I am brought back to where I began.
I can accept that there will be a Summer where we will need to vote 2 scum and not vote for Spawn. The fact that Spawn are random voters allows no information. Finding Scum, and comparing that fact to their voting record allows for a lot of information. -As long we allow for human logic, and not computer logic.
We need to be in a place though, that we can act on a double player vote if and when we have to vote that way.
A final thought:
Just because we get new Spawn every Summer, does not make Spawn “disposable”. -Unless we vote for them every Summer.
**
There is no vote here, but I do question from where people who are against a Spawn vote today are sitting. **
** Have we used the word Pondie yet?
OK, I’m going to agree with sachertorte on the all or nothing vote for Spawn. I don’t like the idea of some people having 2 votes while others have only 1. I also see that this is frequently the case in a more normal voting system when one player takes an obvious lead and one-offs are thrown around, but I still don’t like the idea.
I also continue to concede that voting for Spawn toDay is probably a good idea.
I guess the point I’ve been trying to make is that we don’t know that it will always be a good diea. There may be times when we want to take shots at 2 people for the information.
In Colorless, Freudian was consistently the 2nd place vote getter in the early Days. Had the Town had 2 lynches, they could have killed her along with someone else one of those Days for the information instead of waiting until Day 4.
In this game, something like that might be possible on Day 2 or 3. Yes, I realize it will leave us with an extra Spawn to kill at some point, but we’ll know exactly who to vote for when the time comes. And yes, it does move Scum a little closer to their win condition, but again, we’ll know exactly who to lynch later in the game. Additionally, if Town has any killing roles, they can take care of an extra Spawn easily and bring us back to baseline.
So, while I agree that today’s case for voting Spawn is strong, I’m not willing to say that it always will be. I’m not even willing to say that it usually will be. I’m willing to take each Day as it comes and see what our best course of action is.
I also think most people do agree with me. I’m jsut trying to be clear and make sure this message is out there. I don’t wwant us playing a mindless game here. I want us to keep our thinking caps on and not rely on a player or two to tell us how to play, even if it is sachertorte. 
(who always seems to be Town anyway :eek:)
This game gives us 2 kills in each cycle if we choose. Let’s not abandon that. The cost in using the extra lynch is that we have an additional, but identified member of the Scum team. Sometimes, it might be worth it.
You make a very compelling case to
vote Spawn
The point that really convinced me is that we have a chance to stop spawn early on so we don’t have to sweat it out later on. That, to me, is more important than any information we would get from lysing PC’s right now.
If it was possible to vote twice for the same player I’d agree with you (lots of double voters of uncertain alignment would be bad). However, scum have more to fear from the voting record than town do.
That isn’t a good plan. If we don’t have a vig or they fail to kill spawn for any reason (block? scum doc?), we have to perform a double-spawn lyse toMorrow to catch up. That leaves us short on information. See my previous post #249. However, if we do have a vig then they have the option of killing the player lyse runner-up. That achieves the same result as a double player lyse (two kills with voting info) without risking an increase in the spawn population.
You are ignoring the fact that there is a serious penalty to letting the spawn population grow. Your position on vig kills vs a double player lyse is inconsistent, both actions are more likely to hit town than scum on Day 1.
We’d gain more info from the votes in the short term, but not over the course of the game, because we gain no voting info if we have to carry out a double spawn lyse.
Yes, that can be a problem with vig kills, but it depends on who they target.
See my comments to Diggit above.
OK, that sounded really odd when I read it, since I consider myself a very bossy player. 
Meh. I get accused of this often enough that I don’t really care anymore. What I posit is a strategic analysis. I don’t have the power to force anyone to do anything. The notion that scum will try and strong-arm town into doing something anti-town is often trotted out, but is rarely, if ever, accurate. That’s basically the long way of saying, I would say exactly what I did regarding spawn regardless of whether I am Town or Scum.
All I can do is propose what I think is best, which is what I did. If town agrees then yay! the idea will have been accepted on its merits. If not, then there isn’t much I can do about that.
To clarify my reasoning: the double kill happens simultaneously. The idea that 2 kills in one day is just as transparent as 2 separate kills does not compute for me. Essentially what I’m saying is that were we to hold two separate votes, that are distinguishable and INDEPENDENT of each other, the results would be different than holding two votes simultaneously (dependent). I worry that this overlap obscures the vote record. Sure, you get two kills, but you only get one vote record for those two kills. I’m not crazy right? That’s less information and more noise! Information Theorists? Help me!
As for spawn, I question the wisdom of allowing some players to have 2 votes while some have 1. You seem to think that allowing such flexibility increases your ability to catch scum. I think the opposite. Maybe you are able to discern between Town double votes from scum double votes or Town spawn votes from Scum spawn votes, but I question my own ability to do so (and thus I question yours). It’s all very easy to say, hey scum can do X and we can catch them! But saying you can do it doesn’t really prove that you can. Similarly, my saying you can’t doesn’t prove that you can’t, but it is what I believe. Thus, I feel that spawn votes should be unanimous – remove the variables and the constants remain.
I don’t know about any of this [save for the “closer to their win condition” bit]. I don’t know if any of this will come true. ““When the time comes”” might never come.
Procrastination gets us nowhere. It seldom works in RL, and in a game of Mafia that has [frankly] generated this much discussion on Summer 1, I am not so sure that it can work here either. I reviewed Crimson Glyph before this game started.
I wonder if the scum play for this game is “Let’s fillabuster the game and never place votes.” That always seems to help a party in the minority.
** This begins to smell of Execution V. Ostratization. [I hate words I can’t spell.]**
You seem to imply a Pond Vig. From experience, and from colorless, I ask that the vig, if we have one, not claim today, or shoot tonight.
I don’t recall if we asked, so I will ::
**
What information is revealed upon death? Is the information spread across multiple Summers? [Allignment on one Summer, Role if there is any, on the next?] **
Yeesh, this is going to get complicated when it is down to just a small pool of people. We really need to make sure there are not too many Spawn lying around(so to speak), especially late game. If there are, townspeople may be forced to lynch two Spawns even when they have a strong suspicion of the Scum.
Except if there are actual scum slips or believed doctor claims(if we have one that is), we should not risk killing two non-spawns in one day. We may end up having to kill two Spawns later when we actually have a better idea who the scums are.
I think that’s clear. I’m saying kill our new Spawn daily for at least awhile is the best plan. We may regret it later if we don’t.
Meeko, I can’t see the similarities of Spawn to ostracization, really. I don’t think it as complicated as that.
Note: Meeko is referring to another game(Scarlet Letter) we played some months ago. It had two methods of execution and became a big hassle for everyone, including the moderator(who eliminated it after Day One or so).
Meeko in #283 makes a clear and well researched post. He puts it all in a single post. And I agree with his main points.
This is unlike the last time I played with him. Should I vote for him right now? (tongue in cell wall)
But it may come. If we have a closed mind, we might miss an opportunity. I’m only advising that we keep our options open.
Who the heck is procrastinating? This is a 7 day Day, and we’re less than a Day into it.
Of course, if you’re saying that discussing an important and novel game mechanic is procrastinating, then how would you describe discussing discussing it?
Your analogy comparing our voting system t the US Senate seems very flawed in my mind. The Scum cannot filibuster to prevent a vote from taking place. The Day will end when it ends, and if the scum consistently fail to vote, they’ll stick out.
This game is nothing like Crimson Glyph. There is only one type of lynch. And we even know who some of the bad guys are.
I have no idea if there is a Vig or not. I believe it to be possible. If there is one, I agree that the Vig shouldn’t claim unless in danger of being lynched. Why else would they?
I won’t advise them on killing or not killing. That’s up to them. I know from playing with you enough, Mekko, that you’re probably afraid of being a target. Don’t worry about your own death too much and worry more about finding Scum.
Wait, Zeriel–you unvoted spawn to vote sacher? Why couldn’t you vote for both?
Awww, Look at you snuggling up to Meeko. It’s so cute :dubious:
My kneejerk reaction was “no, while I normally would agree, we definitely want to vote off spawn”. However, after some thought, I think you’re on to something here.
Scum, in general, rightly fear voting for a number of reasons. It’s their biggest weakness; voting patterns have proven to be excellent resources for town in late game. Further, being voted against tends to trigger reactionary negative responses from players (it’s just human nature, really) and tends to attract a lot of attention. Bad for scum.
I don’t think we’ll see scum players going out of their way to keep spawn in the game. I could be wrong, but something that gives scum players a clear advantage tends to be something scum players will avoid public support of.
That said, I still feel spawn votes each day is the best strategy, so:
vote lyse
In the interest of getting a vote on the record, since the game clock seems to be flying by, I’m going to
vote peeker
I get his frustration, but not his anger. At the risk of being labeled a bandwagoner, I confess this vote is largely for selfish reasons – I don’t want to play in a game with the tone that peeker has been using. Scum or not, I don’t get a good feeling.
Er, sorry. vote lyse should have been vote spawn.
Because I’m also currently voting for peeker. =P
You’re in favor of voting for two potential scum instead of one scum and a spawn? Or is this more of a throwing votes out there to get things moving whereupon you’ll go back and vote spawn before the Summer ends?
NETA: …and I wanted to make a not-so-subtle point regarding my contempt for the idea that we should be unanimous about all voting once for spawn vs. everyone following their own trains of thought.
Namely, I see scummy behavior, I vote for scummy behavior. I have two votes? I vote for scummy behavior twice. If we get down to the wire, and it looks like we might not lynch a spawn, then I will switch–but given we have a solid chunk of votes to get rid of the spawn (a good strategic play) why should I not trust myself to use both of my votes to put pressure on scummy behavior especially this early in the Summer?